Neanderthal Pre-or Post-Flood?

Neanderthal : Neanderthal Pre-or Post-Flood? · If Neanderthals were Carnivores, were they Post-Flood? · "what biblical, young earth creationists have always maintained" · Is there an Urban Legend that Grendel and His Mother were Dinosaurs Among Creationists? · · http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2017/12/neanderthals-related-to-michael-oards.html · Hugh Ross and Genetics, Featuring a Gruesome Habit (Don't Read This When You Eat!)

I hypothesise that Neanderthals are pre-Flood people and that Mrs Japheth was half Neanderthal - if she had a Neanderthal father but a Sethite or Cainite mother of Cro-Magnon type, she would lack the Neanderthal typical mitochondrial DNA. Since her husband was no Neanderthal, her male children would also not have Neanderthal typical chromosome Y DNA.

So, what does this mean for the Neanderthals of Gibraltar?

Uniformitarian dates give ...

However, studies have suggested that Neanderthals survived in southern Spain and Gibraltar to less than 30,000 years before the present. Radiocarbon dating performed on charcoal in Gorham's Cave in Gibraltar in 2006 suggests that Neanderthals lived there 24,000 to 28,000 years ago, well after the arrival of Homo sapiens in Europe 40,000 years ago. Vanguard Cave and Gorham's Cave are still the sites of active archaeological excavation in 2012. These caves may have represented the refugium of Gibraltar's Neanderthals.

But that was the charcoal.

So, what about the skull of Gibraltar woman?

Common name

Gibraltar Woman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_1

Species

Homo(sapien) neanderthalensis

Age

30,000 to 40,000 years

Place discovered

Forbes' Quarry, Gibraltar

Date discovered

1848

Discovered by

Edmund Flint

The woman, if carbon dated, is not from same year as the charcoal. I don't believe the cave was inhabited 30,000 BP to 28,000 BP with same cave used for two thousand years, and woman from one end, and charcoal from other end, same population.

Or, if she's from 40,000 BP, that would make it 12,000 years of continuous occupation (longer than the world has existed according to Biblical timescale).

The woman can have been a pre-Flood casualty, and the cave a post-Flood burial place. Or, the charcoal dated 28,000 - 24,000 BP also be pre-Flood.

But supposing she did live about same area in pre-Flood times, what was she looking at when looking south to what is now Morocco?

Arganaceras vacanti

This medium size pareiasaur from the Late Permian of Morocco had a horn-like structure on its snout. It was closely related to the European genus Elginia.

Size :

2 m

Berberosaurus liassicus

Berberosaurus liassicus was a theropod dinosaur known from post cranial remains discovered in the Hight Atlas Mountains of Morocco, Africa. Berberosaurus reached lengths of around 5 - 6 m, it was originally described as the most basal abelisauroid, however later studies suggest it is a basal ceratosaur.

Atlasaurus imelakei

This large Brachiosaurus-like sauropod, originally described as a cetiosaur from the Middle Jurassic of Morocco is known from a nearly complete skeleton.

Size:

Not mentioned, despite skeleton being complete. Wiki says : Atlasaurus differs from Brachiosaurus relative to the estimated length of the dorsal vertebral column (assuming 12 vertebrae, 3.04 m), in having a proportionately larger skull, a shorter neck (with at least 13 cervical vertebrae, shorter and more uniform in length than Brachiosaurus), a longer tail and more elongated limbs (humerus to femur ratio: 0.99; ulna to tibia ratio: 1.15). The teeth are spoon-shaped and have denticles. The lower jaw of Atlasaurus is about 69 centimetres (27 in) long, the neck was about 3.86 metres (12.7 ft) long, the humerus 1.95 metres (6 ft 5 in) long, and the femur about 2 metres (6 ft 7 in) long. It has been estimated at 15 metres (49 ft) in length, and 22.5 tonnes (22.1 long tons; 24.8 short tons) in weight.

Rebbachisaurus garasbae

Rebbachisaurus was a large sauropod dinosaur that grew to lengths of around 20 metres. This animal had a very long neck, small head and whip like tail, which are all common features of sauropods. Rebbachisaurus lived alongside many carnivorous (meat eating) dinosaurs, like Carcharodontosaurus, Rebbachisaurus size was its main defense. One species is presently recognized, R. garasbae, the type species from Morocco. "R. tamesnensis" from Niger is considered a subjective synonym of Nigersaurus taqueti. "R. tessonei" from Argentina has been transferred to the genus Limaysaurus.

Carcharodontosaurus saharicus

Carcharodontosaurus was a large meat-eating theropod from the Early Cretaceous of Africa. Its huge skull with powerful jaw equipped with long serrated teeth make it a formidable predator. Carcharodontosaurus was originally described by French paleontologists Deperet and Savornin in 1925 as a species of Megalosaurus from fragmentary remains found in the desert of Algeria. The name Carcharodontosaurus was coined by Stromer in 1931. The original material was destroyed during WWII but additional fossils were found later. In 2007, Brusatte and Sereno described a new species from Niger, C. iguidensis.

Length:

13.5 m

Deltadromeus agilis

Deltadromeus agilis is a ceratosaur theropod from the Late Cretaceous of North Africa. This animal is much less known than what is inferred from the skeletal reconstruction seen at the museum. The skull, neck and hands are for instance totally unknown and any reconstruction of these elements (such as the highly popularized crests above the eyes) are highly hypothetical. From the available material, Deltadromeus was hinted to be a large (~8 m long) and slender theropod with uncertain affinities.

Spinosaurus aegyptiacus

The original skeleton of Spinosaurus aegyptiacus was discovered in Egypt in 1911 and described by Stromer in 1915. It was destroyed during WWII when the Alte Akademie Museum in Munich was bombed. Since then a few fragmentary materials have been found in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and elsewhere. The most striking feature of Spinosaurus is its 2 meter tall sail which was probably used for temperature regulation. The second species, S. marocannus from Morocco is probably a junior synonym of the type species S. aegyptiacus.

Length:

16-18 m

On the video I was listening to*, it seems Neanderthal 1 had thick bones - like those of body builders. Also, from recent "dental calculus" it seems they ate oatmeal. Even if there were some 100 km between Gibraltar and these monsters in Morocco, I think they may have needed it.

And considering that the post-Flood world would be more like monster reservations than like habitable havens, Noah had a motive for taking one of these people on the Ark - obviously, as a daughter in law.

But suppose instead they had been post-Flood, all of them. Take Sidrón:

The human remains were found accidentally in 1994, all within a single layer (Stratum III). The age of these remains of three men, three adolescent boys, three women, and three infants has been estimated to about 49,000 years. The fact that the bones are excellently preserved with very limited erosion and no large carnivore tooth marks and the unusual deposition of the bones, mixed into a jumble of gravel and mud, suggests that these Neanderthals did not die in this spot but an exterior location. [3] A number of scenarios of how these "members of an extended family" might have ended up in a 6 m2 (65 sq ft) room-sized space, dubbed the Tunnel of Bones included flooding, cave collapse and the disposal by cannibals. Dropped into the cave in a single event via a collapse of nearby fissures above the site or by influx of storm water.

On the video*, it was mentioned there were three men sharing same mitochondrial DNA, three women having different ones. Could this be Shem, Ham and Japheth, with wives and last children who did not become any tribes, because massacred?

Could Nimrodians have massacred them, and used ritual cannibalism?

If so, probably because of their refusal to contribute to Tower of Babel project. That would make Nimrod a murderer of his grandpa. That would also make the carbon date of 49,000 BP correspond to 500 years after the Flood, death of Shem. A far cry from 2420 BC being carbon dated to 5620 BC, as I mentioned in my table. Or would it? "The age of these remains of three men, three adolescent boys, three women, and three infants has been estimated to about 49,000 years." Perhaps the estimate did not use carbon dates?

This would also mean that the first post-Flood people were Neanderthals, all three couples. This I think unlikely on genetical grounds.

Let's look at the article again:

Morphologically, the El Sidrón humans show a large number of Neanderthal lineage-derived features even though certain traits place the sample at the limits of Neanderthal variation. Integrating the El Sidrón human mandibles into the larger Neanderthal sample reveals a north–south geographic patterning, with southern Neanderthals showing broader faces with increased lower facial heights.[8]

Neanderthal ancient mtDNA was partially sequenced in HVR region for three distinct Neanderthals from El Sidrón cave (441, 1253, and 1351c).[9][10] 1253 and 1351c have the same mutations at position A-911, G-977 in exon 7 of FOXP2 gene, known as the "language gene", as present-day people.[11]

The first sequencing of the Neanderthal Y chromosome was successfully completed from a specimen from Sidrón Cave.[12] Based on this sample, researchers estimate that Neanderthals diverged from the common human ancestor around 590,000 years ago.[12] The Sidrón Cave Y chromosome has never been identified before and is not found in modern humans.[12] The Sidrón Cave Y chromosome coded for several minor histocompatibility antigen genes that differed from humans.[12]

If this were the ancestors of all of us, plus six last children who didn't make it to be our ancestors, we have changed a lot, haven't we?

Footnote 12 links to: The Divergence of Neandertal and Modern Human Y Chromosomes
Fernando L. Mendez, G. David Poznik, Sergi Castellano, Carlos D. Bustamante
http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297%2816%2930033-7

I think indeed that the Y chromosome diverged from that of the Noachic line, possibly even through Nephelim ancestry. Obviously, I differ from their conclusion:

We estimate that the time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) of Neandertal and modern human Y chromosomes is ∼588 thousand years ago (kya) (95% confidence interval [CI]: 447–806 kya).

And, this brings us back to Neanderthals probably being pre-Flood and us probably having neither their Y chromosome nor their mitochondrial chromosomes among us.

Btw, supposing El Sidrón 12 massacre victims to have been martyrs would imply their relics could work miracles. Perhaps the Church should become involved about this.

Also, there is no tradition known to me about any martyrdom of Shem, Ham and Japheth ... the scenario I just gave is very likely to be overinterpretation of purely archaeological evidence.

So, until I hear of blind seeing or cripples walking or dead rising after touch from El Sidrón remains, I will not conclude hastily they are relics of martyrs. But it is intriguing they were 12, isn't it?

Now, if they were Nephelim, pure and simple, we might on the other hand conclude they were impious.

Baruch 3:[26] There were the giants, those renowned men that were from the beginning, of great stature, expert in war. [27] The Lord chose not them, neither did they find the way of knowledge: therefore did they perish. [28] And because they had not wisdom, they perished through their folly.

So, despite Tabun cave being close to Mount Hermon, if we have Neanderthal genes, we ought not to consider them as being identical to the Nephelim. Even if related, possibly. A "neph" (as Trey Smith would say) would be more unlike us than a Neanderthal.

Nevertheless, they might have been half breed or quarter breed or one eighth nephelim (and since predominantly normal men, not giants themselves), and for that matter, the father of Mrs Japheth could have himself been less than purely Neanderthal. On the video, it was presented as if the average man alive had like 1 ancestor in those 5 generations back, 1 in 32, as a Neanderthal.

Suppose three sons and daughters in law are roughly equivalent to 4 couples, that means 1/32 could be "divided by 4", for one couple we have 1/8, for one daughter in law 1/4 - Mrs. Japhet could also have had a Neanderthal grandfather. Or grandmother.

And to return to the 12 in Sidrón, they could be people like the three sons and daughters in law and first children of these, but, unlike them, people who never made it onto the Ark. I don't know.

A number of scenarios of how these "members of an extended family" might have ended up in a 6 m2 (65 sq ft) room-sized space, dubbed the Tunnel of Bones included flooding, cave collapse and the disposal by cannibals. Dropped into the cave in a single event via a collapse of nearby fissures above the site or by influx of storm water.

Storm water or Flood Water?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibliothèque Mouffetard, Paris
Our Lady of Lourdes **
11.II.2017

* Are We the Last Neanderthals?
Chicago Humanities Festival
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uRCVyJ7-0c

** Lourdes also has "pre-historic" remnants, but the horse of Lourdes, carbon dated 13,000 BP, is clearly post-Flood, that makes c. 2778 BC according to table of previous message./HGL