Where Robert Carter was announcing the part 1 and under that part 2, of his and Lita Cosner's paper, I promised to take into account an exchange in comment section of this part 2 in my answer.
First, Isaias 19:19 In that day there shall be an altar of the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a monument of the Lord at the borders thereof:
Here is the Haydock comment:
Ver. 19. Altar. If the Jews were forbidden to have any other than the one at Jerusalem, how can the prophet announce this as a blessing? Onias being excluded from the high priesthood, retired into Egypt, and obtained leave to build the temple Onion, in the Nome, though not in the city of Helipolis, above Bubaste, on the Nile, alleging that Isaias had foretold this event, and that one was already built at Leontopolis. Jos. Ant. xii. 15. and xiii. 6.
But we must allow with the fathers and Jews in the days of S. Jerom, that this prediction regarded the Messias, when altars might be lawfully erected in every nation. See Misna, tr. Moneuth, xiii. 10.
Monument. The cross is set up wherever Christ is adored. C.
The Egyptians shall embrace Christianity, and Anthony, &c. shall live a holy (W.) and austere life. H.
In other words, a Catholic has no real reason to associate this verse to the Cheops pyramid.
That said, the commenter who wanted to associate Cheops pyramid with the pre-Flood world had a few things to say:
In case anyone was wondering, I was not implying that the Great Pyramid itself must be antedeluvian, nor that the global Flood of Noah may have been characteristically gentle. But does the global geologic average sediment and structure mean that every bit of the anteduvian land material or land structure is now (a) completely hidden under sediment, or (b) is, to the eyes of Noah and his seven, unrecognizably reworked?
Well, for one thing, there would need to be some places where this were not so for vegetation to survive.
1:08 - 1:54 on Noah's Ark and Global Flood Objections Answered - Kent Hovind & Atheist Nolan Fields
Standing For Truth | 28.IX.2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoXVSdRm7Mg
- some plants survived the Flood just fine
- but how would they survive over a year underneath water?
- why do you think they're under water for a year?
- what it says
- oh, it doesn't, it says Noah was in the Ark for a year but - he laughs
- yeah, Noah is in the Ark for a year and the Flood was a year
- no, he was in the Ark for seven days before the Flood even started
...
- my bad, let's say it was 270 days ... but it took five more months for the water to subside
- yes, parts of the world may have only been covered for a few weeks
OK, and during those few weeks those parts necessarily were either abrased all top 10 meters or added 10 meters of sediment?
My point is, if you add ten meters of sediments to a place with plants, they are not likely to survive even if the time they were under water was only a few weeks - except the very highest trees having very tall tops sticking up above the ten meters.
But a huge river valley with its drainage basins would be a depth of perhaps 100s of meters between edges and the mid cleft for the actual main river.
Therefore, the four main rivers of the pre-Flood world are likely to have been identifiable in the post-Flood world. Not without possibility of mistake, but certainly with a possibility for correcting such.
However, we are not only dealing with the Flood, we are also dealing with tectonic movements after the Flood that create mountains. Some such ranges have no doubt divided river beds, created new drainage divides and any added sea (Black Sea Flood dated to 6000 BC is added in post-Babel times!) will also divide what was previously one river. Also, the slope can in such cases shift direction, my whole contention is, on this account, the guess that Frat was originally not running SE but NW. And continuing past what is now Black Sea into the Danube, and from there into the Rhine. Then come Alps, Black Sea and both Euphrates part and Danube part shift direction to SE, while Rhine continues (with Seine and Garonne) NW. Perhaps even Liffey and Thames were once part of the pre-Flood delta of Frat.
During such a breakup, the several parts would continue to be known and recalled as having been parts of a river of Eden, long enough for Hebrew tradition to catch up on it.
Now, I do not think lower Mesopotamia was Eden. Why? Lower Classic Mesopotamia is Mid Iraq. It is a pretty low country. Carter has argued that Eden or nearby had a mountain from whence the four rivers flowed, and this seems legitimate. The requirement of a mountain is not to be overlooked. What about higher or NW Mesopotamia, near Göbekli Tepe? Well, we are already in a mountain range, and there is a plain within it, but moreover we are in the mountains from which Euphrates and Tigris are both flowing SE.
If the other two rivers mean White and Blue Nile, and Frat and Hiddekel were flowing NW and N or even turning NE, we need a pre-Flood Eden in Persian Gulf, Arabian Peninsula or Red Sea or Holy Land. This latter has been suggested by one Damien Mackey.
On the other hand, if Frat and Hiddekel were originally flowing the now direction, we need other rivers flowing Northwards basically. And the mountains they come from or Black Sea or Caucasus could be the mountain in Eden from which the rivers divided into four rivers flowed.
Whichever is the case, Moses explicitly said one of the four rivers is flowing around all the land of Ethiopia, literally in the Hebrew of Kush, who is a post-Flood patriarch. He also said of one that it encompasses Hevilah alluding to things that are found there.
Claiming that Moses could identify the rivers by prophecy but let no one else in on their secret identitity is disingenious. We must claim that their at least partial identity was known in post-Flood days, which gives Euphrates and Tigris as at least parts of the rivers of Frat and Hiddekel.
Now, I'll give another reason why lower Mesopotamia, a k a Mid Iraq, a k a Babylonia was probably not the location of Eden.
Wait, this is not going where I was expecting ....?
A miospore assemblage from the Permian of Iraq - A dispersed miospore assemblage comprising 32 genera and 49 species is described from a shale core sample. Two miospore genera, Iraqispora and Mosulipollenites, and 27 species are new. The material is from Atshan well in the Chia Zairi formation near Mosul in northern Iraq. The miospore flora described here is compared with comparable spore floras of Permian age. On the basis of this study, it is suggested that this spore composition corresponds to an Upper Permian age.
Miospores are land plants, right? And Mosul - yes, OK, Mosul is just across ancient and deserted Nineveh, sorry. N Iraq.
Actually, they are shore plants:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptospore
A Palaeocene teredinid (Mollusca) from Iraq - The teredinid mollusc Bankia {Bankiella) kurdistanensis sp. nov. is described from an association of tubes, valves, and pallets in the Palaeocene of Iraq.
This is more what I was expecting, but "kurdistanensis" also suggests Northern part of Iraq. Of course, if the molluscs are small enough, they may have been transported intact over to what was land before the Flood. In fact, they seem to be a kind of shipworms ...?
Permian corals from northern Iraq
Again, the corals could have been transported during the Flood.
Malawania anachronus – New Ichthyosaur from Iraq was Living Fossil of its Time
http://www.sci-news.com/paleontology/article01075-malawania-ichthyosaur-iraq.html
Here this is less likely.
Imagine an Ichthyosaur transported miles by the Flood? You get the idea, when arriving, it can no longer be identified as an Ichthyosaur. Therefore, if it can be so identified, while some fossil and mineral material was so transported, this Ichthyosaur is no candidate for such a process.
Bonus:
Remarkably, this kind of archaic ichthyosaur appears characterized by an evolutionary stasis: they seem not to have changed much between the Early Jurassic and the Cretaceous, a very rare feat in the evolution of marine reptiles.
So, part of N Iraq was land, because it had miospores, at least there was a coast, but part of N Iraq was sea - Kurdistan comes in this category.
On the other hand, Shanidar was clearly land, since we have a pre-Flood (with Flood's carbon date as 40 000 BP) Neanderthal from there:
Despite Deafness, Missing Forearm and Limp, This Neanderthal Lived into His Forties
http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/paleoanthropology/shanidar-1-neanderthal-05355.html
Now, this actually only proves that the immediate pre-Flood Iraq (at least Kurdistan) was water. Obviously, if Josephus is right, there was an earlier Flood before that of Noah, a regional one, leaving the Mediterranean - and I wonder how much else it may have covered before the Flood of Noah.
So, some possibility an Edenic river could have run through a pre-Flood flooded sea area.
I'd actually try to map these places in Iraq ... Mosul land or seashore, N Iraq spec Kurdistan sea, Shanidar land, at least island.
I haven't reconstructed very much for Iraq, but Shanidar and Mosul land, hence marked green, then Kurdistan or N Iraq sea either NW or SE or both sides of a line joining them, hence two question marks in blue, rest of Iraq, as far as these articles go, unknown, hence a bigger question mark in black. We do need sea in Kurdistan, since, not only do we have shipworms, we have corals, and we have an ichthyosaur. So, we have three indications there was sea, and one of them cannot have arrived during the mud slushes of the most turbulent parts of the Flood.
5. I would love to find an antediluvian landscape. I would love to think that there are antediluvian human artifacts still in existence. However, none of this is true. Does this bother me? Not in the least. [Carter]
Whether there are antediluvian artifacts, I do not know. As for landscapes, or maps, we do have fair indications, as said.
And as for antediluvian stories, apart from Genesis 4, 5, 6, which are certain beyond doubt, we probably have also elves and trolls as Japhetic memories of pre-Flood Neanderthals, and Mahabharata as a presumably Hamite memory of the cousin infight a generation after the children of Lamech.
Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St Michaels-Mass
29.IX.2018
PS, the four images where three are mapping parts and fourth has my indications, are from Wikipedian articles on Mosul, Iraqi Kurdistan, Shanidar Cave and Iraq.
Aucun commentaire:
Enregistrer un commentaire