St Augustine Didn't Say So ... or He Did, But St. Thomas Said Otherwise

I was just reading this page:

Genesis 10:5 Parallel Verses / What does Genesis 10:5 mean?
https://www.bibleref.com/Genesis/10/Genesis-10-5.html

From parallel Bible versions, they were omitting Douay Rheims.

Here it is:

By these were divided the islands of the Gentiles in their lands, every one according to his tongue and their families in their nations.

Now, this is not extremely important, on this one verse, since it says basically the same thing as the other versions.

But here is the salient point:

It's helpful to remember that this spreading out and having separate languages came after the events surrounding the tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Until that time, all the people of the earth were concentrated in one region and spoke one language.

I would like to correct this, my version being like:

It's helpful to remember that having separate languages came after the events surrounding the tower of Babel in Genesis 11. Until that time, all the people of the earth spoke one language.

Note, what I left out is, geographic concentration up to Babel and therefore identity of the spreading out in Genesis 10 and the dispersion in Genesis 11.

So, I just checked with St Augustine, City of God, if you want Flood to Abraham, it is book 16 you look up. I also tried to check Theodoret, Questions on the Octateuch. I failed to access any text, either paper or electronic.

In St. Augustine, I got confirmation on one point I had debated previously:

After enumerating these, Scripture returns to the first of the sons, and says, "Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a giant on the earth. He was a giant hunter against the Lord God: wherefore they say, As Nimrod the giant hunter against the Lord. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babylon, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Out of that land went forth Assur, and built Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, and Resen between Nineveh and Calah: this was a great city." Now this Cush, father of the giant Nimrod, is the first-named among the sons of Ham, to whom five sons and two grandsons are ascribed. But he either begot this giant after his grandsons were born, or, which is more credible, Scripture speaks of him separately on account of his eminence; for mention is also made of his kingdom, which began with that magnificent city Babylon, and the other places, whether cities or districts, mentioned along with it. But what is recorded of the land of Shinar which belonged to Nimrod's kingdom, to wit, that Assur went forth from it and built Nineveh and the other cities mentioned with it, happened long after; but he takes occasion to speak of it here on account of the grandeur of the Assyrian kingdom, which was wonderfully extended by Ninus son of Belus, and founder of the great city Nineveh, which was named after him, Nineveh, from Ninus.

In other words, it is the nation and not the person Assur who builds Nineveh, later on.

Now, the point I was looking for was this one:

But nations are expressly mentioned among the sons of Ham, as I showed above. "Mizraim begot those who are called Ludim;" and so also of the other seven nations. And after enumerating all of them, it concludes, "These are the sons of Ham, in their families, according to their languages, in their territories, and in their nations." The reason, then, why the children of several of them are not mentioned, is that they belonged by birth to other nations, and did not themselves become nations. Why else is it, that though eight sons are reckoned to Japheth, the sons of only two of these are mentioned; and though four are reckoned to Ham, only three are spoken of as having sons; and though six are reckoned to Shem, the descendants of only two of these are traced? Did the rest remain childless? We cannot suppose so; but they did not produce nations so great as to warrant their being mentioned, but were absorbed in the nations to which they belonged by birth. But though these nations are said to have been dispersed according to their languages, yet the narrator recurs to that time when all had but one language, and explains how it came to pass that a diversity of languages was introduced.

Wait, it seems he did say so. The narrator recurs, that is runs back to before and the dispersion is according to languages.

So, I have one Church Father against me ... bad. That is why I'd like to know if I have another one for me. It seems I do have some in

Postilla in libros Geneseos
a capite VI ad caput XI
http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/xgn06.html

An omnes tunc simul recesserunt et in Sennaar insimul venerunt, an solum principaliores ex eis cum aliquibus sibi annexis, non plene claret ex hoc loco.		Whether all then at the same time went back and went to Shinear together, or only the principal ones with someones attached to them, is not fully clear from this passage.
Licet enim infra dicatur, scilicet quod inde de Babylone dispersit eos dominus in universas terras, hoc potest dici, aut quia causa dispersionis omnium fuit ex illo loco, aut quia principaliores ibi erant et inde dispersi sunt, et in eorum divisione et dispersione divisae sunt gentes, quarum ipsi erant duces; quia nec alia potest dari ratio quomodo tunc omnes discesserunt de Babylone.		Because, while below it be said, namely that from there, from Babylon, the Lord dispersed them into all lands, this may be said, either because the cause of the dispersion of all was of this place, or because the principal ones were there and were dispersed from there, and in their division and dispersion the nations were dispersed of whom they were leaders; since also no other reason can be given how then all left Babylon.
Non est enim dubium quin plures ibi tunc temporis remanserint.		For, no doubt, many at that time stayed there.
Refert autem Magister quod Philo in libro quaestionum super Genesim narrat, quod ex tribus filiis Noe, adhuc ipso vivente, fuerunt viginti quatuor millia virorum praeter parvulos et mulieres.		But the Master [of sentences? someone else?] relates that Philo in his book of questions about Genesis tells, that of the three sons of Noah, while he was still alive, there were 24 000 men besides children and women.
Sed videtur quod longe plures fuerunt.		But it's clear they were many more.
Noe enim, secundum literam nostram et Hebraicam, vixit usque ad exitum Abrahae de domo patris sui.		For Noah, according to our and the Hebrew letter, lived to when Abraham left the house of his father.
Nam a diluvio usque ad ejus exitum computantur trecenti septuaginta duo anni.		For from the Deluge to his going out are counted three hundred and seventy two years.
Noe autem vixit ultra hunc numerum per tres annos.		But Noah lived three years beyond this number.
Tempore autem illo facta erat grandis populatio Chananaeorum et diversarum gentium et regnorum.		But in this time the population of Chanaaneans and diverse nations and kingdoms had grown great.
Praeterea populus Israel in minus quam ducentis annis multiplicatus est in Aegypto usque ad sexcenta millia virorum praeter parvulos et mulieres.		Furthermore, the people of Isreal in less than two hundred years is in Egypt multiplied even to six hundred thousand men besides children and women.
Quid ergo mirum si in trecentis quinquaginta annis Noe sit facta multiplicatio longe ultra viginti quatuor milia virorum?		What marvel then if in three hundred fifty years of Noah the multiplication go far beyond 24 000 men?
Invenerunt campum, idest planiciem, in terra Sennaar.		They found a field, that is a plain, in the land of Shinear.
Possibile est quod duabus ex causis de oriente recesserant.		It is possible that they had receded from the East for two causes.
Primo scilicet ut magis accederent ad medium terrae habitabilis, ut exinde possent melius circumquaque diffundi, et regi a principalioribus, quasi in medio populorum regendorum manentibus.		First, you see, in order to access more to the middle of habitable earth, so as to from there better diffuse around and be ruled by the principal men, as they stayed in the middle of the peoples to be ruled.
Secundo ut redirent ad terram in qua manserant Adam et primi patres eorum.		Second, to get back to the land in which Adam and their first fathers had stayed.
Quacumque autem ex causa fuerit, est notandum quam mirabili ordine variavit Deus principales sedes patrum et divini cultus, et regnorum mundi.		But for whatever cause it was, it is to be noted how wonderful the order is, by which God varied the seats of the fathers and of divine worship and of the kings of the world.
Nam primo fuit in Paradiso.		For first it was in Paradise.
Secundo creditur fuisse in Hierusalem sive circa Hebron, ubi et Adam legitur esse sepultus.		Second, it is believed to have been in Jerusalem or around Hebron, where also Adam is written about as being buried.
Tertio faciente domino quod arca post diluvium versus orientem subsideret, fuit in oriente.		Third, the Lord making the Ark subside to the East after the Deluge, it was in the East.
Quarto rediit circa Hierusalem, licet tunc aliquamdiu fuerit in Aegypto.		Fourth it returned around Jerusalem, though then for some time it has been in Egypt.
Deinde sub Christo cultus Dei diffusus in omnes, quantum tamen ad principalem sedem per Graecos venit ad Latinos, exinde rediturus ad omnes, et praecipue ad Judaeos.		Thereon under Christ the cult of God is diffused among all, at least as to the main seat came to Latins by Greeks, and from there is to return to all, and foremost to the Jews.
Dixitque alter ad proximum suum, venite et cetera.		And each one said to his neighbour: come, and so on.
Non est credendum quod Sem et ceteri sancti patres illius temporis in hoc consenserunt, et quamquam aliquis ex eis ad opus extrinsecus compelli potuit, praecipue cum videatur quod Noe adhuc viveret:		It should not be believed that Shem and the other holy fathers of that time consented in this, and though a few of them may have been forced from outside to the work, foremost as Noah was still alive:
quia secundum literam nostram, a diluvio usque ad ortum Phaleg in cujus diebus divisa est terra, non sunt nisi anni centum triginta et unus: et usque ad mortem ejus sunt trecenti quadraginta: Noe autem post diluvium vixit trecentis quinquaginta annis, decem scilicet post mortem Phaleg.		for according to our letter, from the Deluge to the birth of Peleg in whose days the earth was divided, there are only one hundred and thirty one years, and to his death three hundred and forty, but Noah after the Flood lived three hundred and fifty years, that is ten beyond the death of Peleg.
Ex modo autem isto loquendi innuitur quod aliqui fuerunt principales incitatores aliorum ad hoc aedificium;		But from this mode of speach we can gather that some were principally inciting the others to this building project,
et etiam quod ex magno affectu, et cum multa et communi concordia hoc fecerunt.		and also that they did it of great feeling and with great common unity of hearts.

St Thomas (though recent editors have said, for some centuries, it is someone else and someone unknown) was probably following a strictly non-LXX chronology, meaning he was not yet (if he it was) in Paris, where the Historia Scholastica implied the Babel project began after the death of Noah, but at least we have one patristico-scholastic voice saying, the gathering around Babel was a gathering of principal men, not of exactly everyone alive.

Apart from chronology, I also differ from St Thomas (in his youth, before Paris) in his saying some remained in Babel. Yes, if Babel had been Babylon, and if Babylon* had been continuously the head of Mesopotamian empires and kingdoms and not been founded by Amorrhaeans probably after Joseph in Egypt but before, or even around Exodus, this might have been right, as it is, it is the garbled history accepted in the Middle Ages. If Babel was, as I think, Göbekli Tepe, then strictly all left Babel.

However, he did say also "An omnes tunc simul recesserunt et in Sennaar insimul venerunt, an solum principaliores ex eis cum aliquibus sibi annexis, non plene claret ex hoc loco." Which I translated "Whether all then at the same time went back and went to Shinear together, or only the principal ones with someones attached to them, is not fully clear from this passage."

This means, if some were "staying at home elsewhere" there can have been geographic spread, if on the other hand very clearly no linguistic diversity, before Babel.

I still have a chance of being right, then!

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St. Timothy of Ephesus
24.I.2019

PS, St Thomas (or someone else if so) must have had access to more than one text, and one of them not known today, as in Noah living three years beyond threehundred and seventy two after the Flood, or as in Peleg born one hundred thirty one after the Flood. But he did recall the more normal lifespan of Noah too. The fact that he corrects himself silently seems to indicate we are dealing with someone still learning, but this definitely does not exclude all the ages of St Thomas Aquinas' life, he arguably did have a childhood and youth./HGL

* It is an intriguing possibility that first Babel at Göbekli Tepe and then whatever was the capital of Mesopotamia was entitled "Bab-El" or "Bab-Ilu" and that this meant capital and continued to mean capital until the one settled at 32° 32′ 31″ North, 44° 25′ 12″ East, the one which is where Nebuchadnezzar deported Daniel and the three young men. This would explain the confusion.