lundi 16 octobre 2023

Would Proto-Indo-European Diverge Into Hittite, Mycenaean Greek, Indo-Aryan in The Biblical Time-Frame?


Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere: Three Questions on PIE and Yamnaya (with one debate continued under Continued Debate with "Germanic Syntax") · Creation vs. Evolution: Is There a Correct Use of Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age? · Early human remains found to carry R1b · Would Proto-Indo-European Diverge Into Hittite, Mycenaean Greek, Indo-Aryan in The Biblical Time-Frame? · Φιλολoγικά / Philologica: Can a PIE Spread with Anatolian Farmers be Defended?

First we rule out Maykop culture. Quotes will consistently be from wikipedia.

Maykop culture, c. 3700 BC – 3000 BC
New data revealed the similarity of artifacts from the Maykop culture with those found recently in the course of excavations of the ancient city of Tell Khazneh in northern Syria, the construction of which dates back to 4000 BC.[citation needed]
Radiocarbon dates for various monuments of the Maykop culture are from 3950 - 3650 - 3610 - 2980 calBC
According to genetic studies on ancient DNA published in 2018, the Maykop population came from the south, from Imereti, and was descended from the Chalcolithic farmers known as Darkveti-Meshoko who first colonized the north side of the Caucasus. Maykop is therefore the "ideal archaeological candidate for the founders of the Northwest Caucasian language family".


So, Maykop presumably spoke Northwest Caucasian.

Second, we line up cultures that lead up to Yamnaya culture / Afanasievo culture (apart from Maykop). We also line up very early Indo-European languages at the very end.

Starčevo culture, circa 6,200 B.C. — circa 4,500 B.C.
Vinča culture, c. 5700–4500 BC
Linear Pottery culture, c. 5500 BC — c. 4500 BC
Boian culture, divided
Phase I – Bolintineanu Phase, 4300–4200 BC.
Phase II – Giulești Phase (also known as the Giulești-Boian culture), 4200–4100 BC.
Phase III – Vidra Phase, 4100–4000 BC.
Phase IV – Spanțov Phase (also known as the Boian-Gumelnița culture), 4000–3500 BC.
Cucuteni–Trypillia culture, is divided
• Early (Pre-Cucuteni I–III to Cucuteni A–B, Trypillia A to Trypillia BI–II): 5800 to 5000 BC
• Middle (Cucuteni B, Trypillia BII to CI–II): 5000 to 3500 BC
• Late (Horodiștea–Foltești, Trypillia CII): 3500 to 3000 BC
and is influenced:
The roots of Cucuteni–Trypillia culture can be found in the Starčevo–Körös–Criș and Vinča cultures of the 6th to 5th millennia,[7] with additional influence from the Bug–Dniester culture (6500–5000 BC).[21] During the early period of its existence (in the fifth millennium BC), the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture was also influenced by the Linear Pottery culture from the north, and by the Boian culture from the south.[7]
Sredny Stog culture, c. 4500 BC – 3500 BC
The culture ended at around 3500 BC, when the Yamnaya culture expanded westward replacing Sredny Stog, and coming into direct contact with the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture culture in western Ukraine.
Repin culture, 3900–3300 BCE
Anthony suggests that the Afanasievo culture was formed by a migration of people with a material culture of the same type as Repin, probably from the middle Volga-Ural area c. 3700–3500 BCE.
Yamnaya culture, c. 3300 – 2600 BC
Afanasievo culture, 3300 BCE — 2500 BCE
Hittite language, attested 17th to 12th centuries BC
Mycenaean Greek, 16th–12th century BC


Note, I cannot take Mitanni as earliest attestation of Indo-Aryan, since the language they actually spoke was Hurrian, with some Indo-Aryan superstrate, if that was the case.

But from Starčevo 6200 BC to Hittite 1650 BC, no problem. 4550 years.

From Yamnaya 3300 BC to Hittite 1650, still no problem. 1650 years.

Third, here is the problem, in a Biblical time-frame this is shorter. I will now add quotes from my New Tables into the mix:

2309 B. Chr.
62.1506 pmC, so dated as 6259 B. Chr.

Starčevo culture begins 6,200 B.C.

2287 B. Chr.
63.387 pmC, so dated as 6037 B. Chr.
2265 B. Chr.
64.6199 pmC, so dated as 5865 B. Chr.

Early Cucuteni–Trypillia culture begins 5800 BC
Vinča culture begins c. 5700 BC

2243 B. Chr.
65.7496 pmC, so dated as 5693 B. Chr.

Linear Pottery culture begins c. 5500 BC

2220 B. Chr.
68.0023 pmC, so dated as 5420 B. Chr.

2153 B. Chr.
70.6677 pmC, so dated as 5003 B. Chr.
Early Cucuteni–Trypillia culture ends and
Middle Cucuteni–Trypillia culture begins 5000 BC

2131 B. Chr.
71.8838 pmC, so dated as 4881 B. Chr.

2086 B. Chr.
74.3062 pmC, so dated as 4536 B. Chr.

Starčevo culture, Vinča culture and Linear Pottery culture end 4,500 B.C.
while Sredny Stog culture begins

2064 B. Chr.
75.4934 pmC, so dated as 4364 B. Chr.

Boian Phase I – Bolintineanu Phase begins 4300 BC

2041 B. Chr.
76.6964 pmC, so dated as 4241 B. Chr.

Boian Phase I – Bolintineanu Phase ends and
Boian Phase II – Giulești Phase (also known as the Giulești-Boian culture) begins 4200 BC

Boian Phase II – Giulești Phase (also known as the Giulești-Boian culture) ends and
Boian Phase III – Vidra Phase, begins 4100

2019 B. Chr.
77.8962 pmC, so dated as 4069 B. Chr.

Boian Phase III – Vidra Phase ends and
Boian Phase IV – Spanțov Phase (also known as the Boian-Gumelnița culture), begins 4000 BC

1996 B. Chr.
79.0927 pmC, so dated as 3946 B. Chr.

Repin culture begins 3900 BC

1952 B. Chr.
81.476 pmC, so dated as 3652 B. Chr.

Boian Phase IV – Spanțov Phase (also known as the Boian-Gumelnița culture)
and Middle Cucuteni–Trypillia culture
and Sredny Stog culture end 3500 BC, and Late Cucuteni–Trypillia begins

1935 B. Chr.
82.73 pmC, so dated as 3485 B. Chr.

1868 B. Chr.
84.1262 pmC, so dated as 3318 B. Chr.

Repin culture ends 3300 BC
when Yamnaya and Afanasievo cultures begin

1845 B. Chr.
84.5892 pmC, so dated as 3245 B. Chr.

1778 B. Chr.
85.9766 pmC, so dated as 3028 B. Chr.

Late Cucuteni–Trypillia ends 3000 BC

1756 B. Chr.
86.4346 pmC, so dated as 2956 B. Chr.

Yamnaya culture ends 2600 BC

1700 B. Chr.
87.575 pmC, so dated as 2800 B. Chr.
1678 B. Chr.
89.4653 pmC, so dated as 2598 B. Chr.

Afanasievo culture ends 2500 BC

1655 B. Chr.
91.4498 pmC, so dated as 2395 B. Chr.

1521 B. Chr.
98.184 pmC, so dated as 1671 B. Chr.

Hittite language begins 1650 BC

1498 B. Chr.
98.555 pmC, so dated as 1618 B. Chr.

1476 B. Chr.
98.924 pmC, so dated as 1566 B. Chr.

Mycenaean Greek begins 1550 BC

1454 B. Chr.
99.0081 pmC, so dated as 1534 B. Chr.

1185 B. Chr.
100 pmC, so dated as 1185 B. Chr.

Hittite and Mycenaean languages end in 1150 BC


2309 - 1521 = 788 years. Bad. Even if you begin with Starčevo culture
2086 - 1521 = 565 years. Worse, and you have begun with Sredny Stog.
1868 - 1521 = 347 years, from beginning of Yamnaya culture to appearance of Hittite.

Add another 100 years each for coming to Mycenaean Greek.

This is why I tend to feel a YEC is basically committed to Sprachbund type of group for Indo European./HGL

PS, this is consistent with, but may not closely correlate to, the earliest Aryan vocabulary of the Mitanni being in the non-IE language of Hurrian. As mentioned above, also sourced to wikis on Mitanni and on Hurro-Urartian languages/HGL

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