Ah, Griffith and White Provided the Source Too

Are CMI Hearing Me? · Does Sennaar mean Sumer? · Ken Griffith and Darrell K. White considered Judi, but not Göbekli Tepe · Ah, Griffith and White Provided the Source Too · Sumeria, Damien Mackey, Intellectual Honour · Damien Mackey Has His View on Shinar, Nimrod and Babel

An Upper Mesopotamian location for Babel
Ken Griffith and Darrell K. White
VIEWPOINT || JOURNAL OF CREATION 35(2) 2021
https://dl0.creation.com/articles/p149/c14992/j35_2_69-79.pdf

The tablet known as ABC 20 “The Chronicle of Early Kings”32 relates Sargon’s last campaign of conquest to Subartu as follows:

“Afterwards, Subartu attacked Sargon in full
force and called him to arms.
Sargon set an ambush and completely defeated them.
He overpowered their extensive army
and sent their possessions into Akkad.
He dug up the dirt of the pit of Babylon and
made a counterpart of Babylon next to Agade.”

...

However, we see a different solution to the puzzle. The Chronicle of Early Kings relates that Sargon dug dirt from Babylon and built a new Babylon near Akkad in the section describing how he looted and humiliated Subartu after defeating them.

32. Grayson, A.K. (Ed.), Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles (Texts from Cuneiform Sources), Eisenbrauns, Ann Arbor, MI, 2000.

I also find that, like me, they know of Anne Habermehl:

Anne Habermehl5 proposed that Babel and the other three cities of Nimrod were located in the Khabur Triangle of Syria adjacent to the Sinjar Mountains.

...

The fact that the PPNA is known to be older than the Halaf culture of the Khabur Triangle, by Habermehl’s standard, suggests that the PPNA is where Babel should be found. No PPNA sites have been found in the Khabur Triangle.

5 probably 6. Habermehl, A., Where in the world is the Tower of Babel? ARJ 4:25–53, 2011.

I'd like to know if Göbekli Tepe is included in Subartu, as it certainly is in PPNA (Pre-Pottery Neolithic A), as well as in PPNB. In fact, the identity of Subartu is, according to wiki, disputed.

Obviously, their three candidates for Babel are further east than Göbekli Tepe:

a. Small structure under lava flow: 37°40’27.62”N, 40°2’13.81”E
b. 600 x 1000 m rectangle canted 23° east of north: 37°44’57.88”N, 40° 6’30.17”E
c. Tel along old river terrace: 37°47’48.84”N, 40°22’45.39”E.

Göbekli Tepe is 37°13′25″N 38°55′18″E — a bit longer than one degree further West than each of the candidates. I think it's bigger than all three of them, and since I place the time period of the Babel building into between 350 and 401 after the Flood, I can so to speak "afford more workers" than they can. Not that either they or I would be eager to give workers to Nimrod.

I could not find any dates for any of these, carbon dates that is, but for C I found two sources, one being the pdf already linked to and another being a book from Cambridge University Press — which has the title 6000 BC.

Obviously, titles like that can be misleading, but if this one isn't, I think Göbekli Tepe trumps it in age, as per the carbon dates of charcoal layers.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Georges Pompidou Library
Sts Basil, Auxilius and Saturnine
Martyrs of Antioch
27.XI.2023

Antiochiae sanctorum Martyrum Basilei Episcopi, Auxilii et Saturnini.

Ken Griffith and Darrell K. White considered Judi, but not Göbekli Tepe

Are CMI Hearing Me? · Does Sennaar mean Sumer? · Ken Griffith and Darrell K. White considered Judi, but not Göbekli Tepe · Ah, Griffith and White Provided the Source Too · Sumeria, Damien Mackey, Intellectual Honour · Damien Mackey Has His View on Shinar, Nimrod and Babel

Candidate site for Noah’s Ark, altar, and tomb
by Ken Griffith and Darrell K. White | This article is from
Journal of Creation 35(3):50–63, December 2021
https://creation.com/karaca-dag

We analyzed the traditions of the church fathers, Midrash, Book of Jubilees, and other historical sources for the Ark, with gratitude to Bill Crouse9 who did an excellent job compiling those sources in order to justify Mt Judi as the Ark site. For this comparison we used the following pairings of Ark and Babel sites: Ararat-Babylon, Durupinar-Babylon, Judi-Tel Brak, Karacadag-Çınar. Table 1 compares proposed Ark sites using these criteria. For each of 35 claimed facts, one point was awarded for a strong positive, one half point for a weak positive, and zero points for a negative.

Ararat-Babylon,
Durupinar-Babylon,
Judi-Tel Brak,
Karacadag-Çınar.

No comparisons for Judi-Göbekli Tepe ...

Also no comparisons about claims in or around Genesis 11 in the Bible itself.

It may be mentioned that some features on top Karacadag are pretty sound candidates as possible archaeological objects. Since Karacadag is in the Siverek district of the Urfa province and Göbekli Tepe is 15 km from Urfa itself, SSW of Siverek, it is arguable that Karacadag as well as Judi are compatible with "them" removing from the landing place as from the East to where they came. Especially if they had first descended a slope Southward before then turning West./HGL

PS, Yes, Karaca Dağ is further East than Göbekli Tepe:

Karaca Dağ
37°40′12″N 39°49′48″E
Göbekli Tepe
37°13′25″N 38°55′18″E

PPS, Karahan Tepe is further West than Karaca Dağ, further East than Göbekli Tepe.

Karahan Tepe
37°05′33″N 39°18′13″E

Unlike Karaca Dağ, it is also about the same parallel as Göbekli Tepe, even a bit further South.

And when they removed from the east,

could refer to leaving Karahan Tepe for the Harran Plain and Göbekli Tepe. Karahan Tepe is not in the plain, but in the Tek Tek Mountains./HGL

Are CMI Hearing Me?

Are CMI Hearing Me? · Does Sennaar mean Sumer? · Ken Griffith and Darrell K. White considered Judi, but not Göbekli Tepe · Ah, Griffith and White Provided the Source Too · Sumeria, Damien Mackey, Intellectual Honour · Damien Mackey Has His View on Shinar, Nimrod and Babel

An Upper Mesopotamian location for Babel
by Ken Griffith and Darrell K. White | This article is from
Journal of Creation 35(2):69–79, August 2021
https://creation.com/babel-upper-mesopotamia

For starters, I am disagreeing with Abraham being there two centuries after the dispersion. On Biblical chronology, I am with the Historia Scholastica and the Christmas Proclamation of Martyrologium Romanum.

Next ....

Location. Not too bad.

37°47’48.84”N, 40°22’45.39”E "Babel, cand. C"
37°13′23″N 38°55′21″E Göbekli Tepe

The nearby Çınar, Diyarbakır is between Cizre (238,9 km) and Göbekli Tepe (183 km, distances by car, involve turns, and Çınar is a bit N of the line Cizre to Göbekli Tepe).

Time in archaeology ... could so far not find what "Babel candidate C" is carbon dated to.

Bricks? Well, the finding of bricks is being pushed backwards. They mention that bricks have been found at level XIII of Tepe Gawra. Now, they did not tell and I could not find what carbon date is associated with that level. The wikipedian article on Tepe Gawra says:

Tepe Gawra (Kurdish for "Great Mound")[1] is an ancient Mesopotamian settlement 15 miles NNE of Mosul in northwest Iraq that was occupied between 5000 and 1500 BC. It is roughly a mile from the site of Nineveh and 2 miles E of the site of Khorsabad. It contains remains from the Halaf period, the Ubaid period, and the Uruk period (4000–3100 BC). Tepe Gawra contains material relating to the Halaf-Ubaid Transitional period c. 5,500–5,000 BC.

So, oldest carbon dates are 5500 or 5000 BC. What years would this be on my tables?

2243 B. Chr.
0.657496 pmC/100, so dated as 5693 B. Chr.
2220 B. Chr.
0.680023 pmC/100, so dated as 5420 B. Chr.

or

2153 B. Chr.
0.706677 pmC/100, so dated as 5003 B. Chr.

If the meaning was, this was contemporary with 37°47’48.84”N, 40°22’45.39”E archaeology, I think this could still be too late. If the meaning however is "burned bricks are going back in archaeology" I agree this is good news.

What if I went back in (real/Biblical) time for 5000 BC carbon dates?

Peleg is born 401 after the Flood, 2556 BC.

5000 - 2556 = 2444 extra years, 74.405 pmC in 401 after Flood
5500 - 2556 = 2944 extra years, 70.038 pmC in 401 after Flood

A sample from 401 years ago, if original content were 100 pmC, would have 95.265 pmC. This means 95.265 is the percentage left of original sample - and 100 - 95.265 gives us the normal replacement in 401 years:

100 pmC - 95.265 pmC = 4.735 pmC.

Flood itself, 2.625 pmC (dated 39,000 BP).*

2.625 pmC * 95.265 %
2.625 pmC * 0.95265 = 2.5 pmC

74.405 pmC - 2.5 pmC = 71.905 pmC
71.905 pmC / 4.735 pmC = c. 15 times faster (my own work has 10 times faster)
70.038 pmC - 2.5 pmC = 67.538 pmC
67.538 pmC / 4.735 pmC = c. 14 times faster

What would the effect be in relation to Genesis 14?

2556 BC - 1935 BC (Genesis 14) = 621 years.

Percentage of original and normal replacement in 621 years. 92.763 % and 7.237 pmC.

Level at Genesis 14, 82.73 pmC** - sorry, just checked** - 82.753 pmC.

Let's compare normal replacement with actual replacement of C14, and we start by calculating the remainder from the 2556 level that's left in 1935 and deduce that from the total 1935 level.

74.405 pmC * 0.92763 = 69.02 pmC
82.753 pmC - 69.02 pmC = 13.733 pmC
70.038 pmC * 0.92763 = 64.969 pmC
82.753 pmC - 64.969 = 17.784 pmC

13.733 pmC / 7.237 pmC = 1.898 times faster
17.784 pmC / 7.237 pmC = 2.457 times faster

So, if Babel's end were in carbon dated 5000 or 5500 BC Flood to Babel would have seen 14 to 15 times faster replacement than normal, but in Babel to Genesis 14 it suddenly drops to around twice as fast - less than between Genesis 14 and the death of the childkilling pharao, if he was Sesostris III*** which is 3 times the present normal replacement.

But as said, they did not say that Tepe Gawra XIII and 37°47’48.84”N, 40°22’45.39”E were identical. They even said that Pre-Pottery Neolithic A is a good period to look:

The Bible states that Noah was the first farmer after the Flood (Genesis 9:20). In archaeology the ‘Neolithic’ are considered the first farmers, and the PPNA is the oldest known Neolithic culture. Therefore, we expect that the PPNA is a good place to look for the Tower of Babel.

While burnt bricks have so far neither been found in 37°47’48.84”N, 40°22’45.39”E, nor in Göbekli Tepe, the lower level of Tepe Gawra could go back to 5000 BC carbon dated, which is as mentioned 2153 BC.

2607 BC or begin of Babel - 2153 BC = 454 years

Perhaps not too long between the first actual bricks and the first so far found bricks.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Martin of Tours
11.XI.2022

Turonis, in Gallia, natalis beati Martini, Episcopi et Confessoris; cujus vita tantis exstitit niiraculis gloriosa, ut trium mortuorum suscitator esse meruerit.

PS, don't miss the delicious argument they made that Sargon first ruled in a city named Akkad (it hasn't been found separately from Babylon) and then conquered a place in modern Turkey called Babylon, and then renamed Akkad into Babylon. Their article really is worth reading./HGL

Notes:
* Checking. 39000 BP = 37000 BC - 2957 BC = 34043 extra years. A recent sample back then would have dated to "34043 years ago." Which gives 1.628 pmC. My bad.
** Checking. 3500 BC - 1935 BC = 1565 extra years, 82.753 pmC
*** If the childkilling pharao was later than Sesostris III, we need a higher pmC in 1590 BC, meaning the disproportion even further increases.