Affichage des articles dont le libellé est Galileo case. Afficher tous les articles
Affichage des articles dont le libellé est Galileo case. Afficher tous les articles

jeudi 19 mars 2026

I Hope, For Galileo's Sake, He Did Retract


Creation vs. Evolution: I Hope, For Galileo's Sake, He Did Retract · Parallax and Heliocentrism · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica: What's the Nature of Theism and the Pagan Alternative to Theism in Romans 1? · The Introibo Blogger Repeats A Blunder by Henry Drummond

But if he didn't, that doesn't mean I should retract from the view of his judges. Unlike Freemasons, I don't count him as a "martyr for science" or as a kind of saint (outside the Roman Catholic lists of saints, Martyrologium Romanum, local pre-congregation etc obviously).

CMI seems to have spent some buildup to attacking Geocentrism, which is a sidekick from their usual fair.

A few days ago, in Evolution quick or slow?, Jonathan Sarfati cited St. Thomas Aquinas:

That is, there are often multiple theories that can explain the same observations. Thomas applied it to the astronomy of the day, but it works just as well for today’s biology:

… as in astronomy the theory of eccentrics and epicycles is considered as established, because thereby the sensible appearances of the heavenly movements can be explained; not, however, as if this proof were sufficient, forasmuch as some other theory might explain them.


Summa Theologiae/Theologica > First Part > Question 32, Article 1 > Reply to Objection 2
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1032.htm#article1


Let's give some context, first. Objection 2 and Reply to Objection 2, about what question or as the actual questions are here nicknamed "what article" (a "question" is usually a collection of articles, so actually means "question topic").

Question 32. The knowledge of the divine persons. Article 1. Whether the trinity of the divine persons can be known by natural reason?

Objection 2. Further, Richard St. Victor says (De Trin. i, 4): "I believe without doubt that probable and even necessary arguments can be found for any explanation of the truth." So even to prove the Trinity some have brought forward a reason from the infinite goodness of God, who communicates Himself infinitely in the procession of the divine persons; while some are moved by the consideration that "no good thing can be joyfully possessed without partnership." Augustine proceeds (De Trin. x, 4; x, 11,12) to prove the trinity of persons by the procession of the word and of love in our own mind; and we have followed him in this (I:27:1 and I:27:3). Therefore the trinity of persons can be known by natural reason.

...

Reply to Objection 2. Reason may be employed in two ways to establish a point: firstly, for the purpose of furnishing sufficient proof of some principle, as in natural science, where sufficient proof can be brought to show that the movement of the heavens is always of uniform velocity. Reason is employed in another way, not as furnishing a sufficient proof of a principle, but as confirming an already established principle, by showing the congruity of its results, as in astrology the theory of eccentrics and epicycles is considered as established, because thereby the sensible appearances of the heavenly movements can be explained; not, however, as if this proof were sufficient, forasmuch as some other theory might explain them. In the first way, we can prove that God is one; and the like. In the second way, reasons avail to prove the Trinity; as, when assumed to be true, such reasons confirm it. We must not, however, think that the trinity of persons is adequately proved by such reasons. This becomes evident when we consider each point; for the infinite goodness of God is manifested also in creation, because to produce from nothing is an act of infinite power. For if God communicates Himself by His infinite goodness, it is not necessary that an infinite effect should proceed from God: but that according to its own mode and capacity it should receive the divine goodness. Likewise, when it is said that joyous possession of good requires partnership, this holds in the case of one not having perfect goodness: hence it needs to share some other's good, in order to have the goodness of complete happiness. Nor is the image in our mind an adequate proof in the case of God, forasmuch as the intellect is not in God and ourselves univocally. Hence, Augustine says (Tract. xxvii. in Joan.) that by faith we arrive at knowledge, and not conversely.


Now, there is a point where another theory still makes quite a lot of sense. Tychonian theory as perfected by Riccioli who took Kepler into account for instance disagrees on the emptiness of epicentres, making instead the Sun the epicentre, and on top of that, not "epi-single-circular-centre" but "epi-one-of-elliptic-focal-points".

This still leaves the daily motion of heaven proceeding at even speed, as he said just before that, except before day I, after doomsday and on Joshua's long day.

But in order to make Heliocentrism make more sense, you actually must presume God doesn't intervene in the daily motion, which would make earth alone a more adequate subject than the visible universe around earth, contradicting Romans 1:18—20, John 5:17. However, that only is an adequate assumption if you either deny God altogether, or envisage "him" as a kind of watchmaker who needs a pause after making his clockwork, and enjoys to see it move without intervening. St. Thomas envisaged Him as both making an instrument and then playing it ... every day until today, including Sabbaths. Making Him visible through that work, even to Pagans. By contrast, that poor image of a likeness of a corruptible man, Hercules, according to that story (which may involve his bragging, since it takes place well outside Tiryns) lifted up Antaeus with his last forces, because he noticed his own forces were near exhaustion, the exact thing God proves in a daily manner is not His case.

Next we have this, from yesterday:

Did Galileo retract heliocentrism before his death?
By Andrew Sibley | Published 18 Mar, 2026
https://creation.com/en/articles/did-galileo-retract


A certain debate before Urban VIII became Pope, before Galileo was judged in 1633, involved the argument:

God could make the universe anyway He wanted. God could also make the universe look to us anyway He wanted.

Galileo made fun of it, leading to the 1633 trial, but my hope for his souls is, by 1641, it had sunk in.

You see, it doesn't mean God is dishonest or morally free to be a liar. It means that God by omnipotence would have had the physical capacity to perform a deception, had He wanted to. Given that the universe looks Geocentric, the options are:

  • God made a Geocentric universe, and because He is truthful, He made it look Geocentric to us.
  • God made a Heliocentric universe, but somehow, He made it look Geocentric to us.


So, Geocentrism being true corresponds to God being truthful. Even apart from Joshua 10 with parallell references. Do you know how Galileo dealt with the Bible, by the way? I'll give another citation from his letter to Grand Duchess Cristina first:

Letter to the Grand Duchess Christina of Tuscany
Stanford University
https://web.stanford.edu/~jsabol/certainty/readings/Galileo-LetterDuchessChristina.pdf


Persisting in their original resolve to destroy me and everything mine by any means they can think of, these men are aware of my views in astronomy and philosophy. They know that as to the arrangement of the parts of the universe, I hold the sun to be situated motionless in the center of the revolution of the celestial orbs while the earth revolves about the sun. They know also that I support this position not only by refuting the arguments of Ptolemy and Aristotle, but by producing many counter-arguments; in particular, some which relate to physical effects whose causes can perhaps be assigned in no other way.


Mainly, the physical effects in the sky as visible to us can be assigned by the Tychonian orbits, and the view on tides is erroneous, and was seen as erroneous by one of the people judging either his book in 1616 or his own position in 1633. He was from Portugal and had seen tides with his own eyes. But, this letter also deals with the Bible.

They go about invoking the Bible, which they would have minister to their deceitful purposes. Contrary to the sense of the Bible and the intention of the holy Fathers, if I am not mistaken, they would extend such authorities until even in purely physical matters - where faith is not involved - they would have us altogether abandon reason and the evidence of our senses in favor of some biblical passage, though under the surface meaning of its words this passage may contain a different sense.


Oops, can you spell out "non-overlapping magisteria" ? Leading evolutionist, Stephen Jay Gould, dies, CMI was against it.

So, how does Sibley view the words of Galileo from 1641, if indeed from him, which he also threw doubt on? Back to the article Did Galileo retract heliocentrism before his death? It's no longer Galileo writing to Grand Duchess Cristina, it's the correspondence from 1641.

So, in context, Galileo wrote with ironic humour in merely expressing the judgement of the authorities. This was his opening statement:

“The falsity of the Copernican system must not be doubted at all, especially by us Catholics, who have the irrefutable authority of the sacred scriptures, interpreted by the greatest masters of theology.”


Sibley is somewhat at a loss on what "the authorities" means to a Catholic.

Now, it is unfortunately possible that Galileo saw himself as free from Catholic authority in physics, like he saw himself free from Biblical authority in physics. But in matters where the Bible binds, even on his view, so does the authority of the Church. The one possibility of his not being sincere is the idea that the question fell outside the Bible and the Church, because wasn't in the least revealed or co-revealed. (I more hold it as co-revealed than as revealed: "lions prowl seeking prey" is similarily not a mystery of faith, but confirmed as true by the faith, and in that same sense co-revealed.) For whatever falls in the scope of revelation, Galileo was well aware of this:

He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.
[Luke 10:16]


But there is a somewhat ludicrous turn of events in Sibley's analysis:

Later in the letter, he expressed the view that, although he considered the Copernican observations to be in incomplete, he thought the alternative views were more in error. He wrote:

“And just as I consider the Copernican observations and conjectures insufficient, I equally consider those of Ptolemy, Aristotle and their followers to be more fallacious and erroneous.”


Rejecting Ptolemy and Aristotle was by now not the least synonymous to rejecting all the alternative views. The words of Galileo don't spell out any rejection of Tycho Brahe or of Riccioli. And the 1633 didn't hold him to staying with Aristotle or Ptolemy, it is quite compatible with accepting Tycho.

At the time of writing, the Copernican system was not fully confirmed by scientific observation, and so the postulations were indeed insufficiently validated at that time. And yet, Galileo considered the geocentric Ptolemaic and Aristotelian views to be in greater error.


The Copernican system is by now fully refuted. You see, it involves the fix stars forming so to speak "one shell" ... if we were to accept that the 1838 Bessel phenomenon were due to the optic effect called parallax (the train ride illusion, when you see hills and trees and houses rush by), this would place stars at vastly different distances from us, and by now even involve the Distant Starlight Problem. If the fix stars do form one shell, then the 1838 phenomenon isn't parallactic, even if it's called parallax from being analysed as such, and then presumably Earth isn't moving.

You may have meant that the Heliocentric system was not fully confirmed. It still isn't. As to the Ptolemaic and Aristotelian views, Galileo may have been basking in his glory from having refuted them on other topics than their Geocentrism, as indeed he had.

And even if he did, it would be fallacious to suggest that it affected the truth or otherwise regarding the question of geocentrism vs heliocentrism.


The retraction as such would not affect the question, but some arguments would. Like the one I saw in Sungenis' material, about God being able to create the universe anyway He liked and make it look anyway He liked. However, the retraction would be of interest to those concerned with Galileo's eternal soul.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St. Joseph
19.III.2026

In Judaea natalis sancti Joseph, Sponsi beatissimae Virginis Mariae, Confessoris; quem Pius Nonus, Pontifex Maximus, votis et precibus annuens totius catholici Orbis, universalis Ecclesiae Patronum declaravit.

Side note:

Beside a video by Sungenis, I saw this question in the chat:

QUESTION: Under geocentrism, is there a naturalistic explanation for the movement of the Sun around the earth that creates the seasons?


For St. Thomas, it worked like this: a) God moves everything from fix stars down to oceanic currents West each day, and the Sun along with it, b) meanwhile, the angel of the Sun is moving it along the Zodiac, around another axis than the one of the daily motion, and that circle is giving sometimes at Equator, sometimes South of it (in December) and sometimes North of it (in June)./HGL

jeudi 16 novembre 2023

Misinformation on St. Robert Bellarmine, I'd Say


Creation vs. Evolution: Misinformation on St. Robert Bellarmine, I'd Say · New blog on the kid: How would my solution to why Earth stays in place work out, physically? · First Approximation of Improving the Calculation · Second Approximation

A man from Regina in Saskatchewan wrote:

According to the popular version of this story, the Church taught that the sun orbited the earth because Scripture says it does and Galileo proved otherwise. The Church imprisoned Galileo for teaching this heretical doctrine and is still wiping egg of its face all these centuries later.

Almost none of this is true.

In fact, St. Robert Bellarmine, the head of the Holy Office of the Inquisition during the Galileo case agreed with Galileo that, if the science demonstrated it, certain passages of Scripture that seem to indicate that the sun orbits the earth would have to be reinterpreted! He was sure that faith and science could not contradict one another, and he also knew that having the sun as the center of the solar system was not an essential truth of the faith. The question for Bellarmine was not how to stop Galileo, but whether or not Galileo had proved his hypothesis.

It is easy to forget that the idea that the sun orbited the earth was not a religious doctrine, but rather the state of the question in astronomy that pre-existed the Church. The Ptolemaic system was the best available explanation of the movement of heavenly bodies as yet discovered and would need significant refuting to be overthrown.


Can Catholics Believe in Evolution?
Admin for the site of the Archdiocese of Regina / Brett Salkeld
https://archregina.sk.ca/blog_ministry/can-catholics-believe-evolution/


So, let's get through this. Bit by bit.

  • According to the popular version of this story, the Church taught that the sun orbited the earth because Scripture says it does

    The Book of Joshua, chapter 10, and comments in the book of Habacuc, and exegesis of Church Fathers all agree that it was Sun and Moon that normally moved, and that it was these that stopped moving on Joshua's orders, not the Earth that stopped rotating.

  • and Galileo proved otherwise.

    I'm glad Brett Salkeld agrees that Galileo hadn't proved otherwise. Neither has anyone else since then.

  • The Church imprisoned Galileo for teaching this heretical doctrine

    In fact, for having taught it. He abjured and even after that remained a prisoner (in gentle home arrest, and visitors severely culled) for the rest of his life for this fact. Pretending this happened purely for a concern for science, is pretending the Church back then sacralised it as much as Communists and similarly minded Atheists sacralise it now.

  • and is still wiping egg of its face all these centuries later.

    Unfortunately, Brett Salkeld looks like he is intent on "wiping eff of the face of the Church" by denying the obvious.

  • In fact, St. Robert Bellarmine, the head of the Holy Office of the Inquisition during the Galileo case agreed with Galileo that, if the science demonstrated it, certain passages of Scripture that seem to indicate that the sun orbits the earth would have to be reinterpreted!

    As far as I recall, St. Robert first expressed that in a hypothetical, and then immediately added "but I do not think it so can be proven" — and the question was not really even of "reinterpreting certain passages" but of for the future (as some seem to be doing in the service of evolution) looking for every possible way of letting a Bible passage anywhere off the hook of its obvious and traditional interpretation. He was less grudgingly admitting (for such a hypothetic case) the need to reinterpret those passages, than complaining (again, for such a hypothetic case) the loss of exegetic innocence and ease.

    For reference for the next parts, he was only head of the Holy Office during the first Galileo case, the one in the 1610's, which condemned his book The Assayer.

  • He was sure that faith and science could not contradict one another, and he also knew that having the sun as the center of the solar system was not an essential truth of the faith.

    He was sure that the faith and proven fact cannot contradict one another. Let's recall, his precise words are about proven fact. The problem is, the modern usage of the word science is taking this to be the corpus of output of a special caste of people known as scientists, or at least positions typical of the majority output of them. Obviously, insofar as any such body existed in St. Robert's day, it was one of Geocentrics.

  • The question for Bellarmine was not how to stop Galileo, but whether or not Galileo had proved his hypothesis.

    He was theoretically willing to give The Assayer a pass, if Galileo could actually prove his hypothesis. But in the second trial, Galileo's personal freedom was basically already forfeited for relapsing into this position. However, the Church had no discipline and still has no discipline, at least officially, of gaoling people for stating things they haven't proven. It's not an equivalent to the English "law of libel" — as for instance the Achilli trial judges censoring John Henry Newman:

    Following the first edition, a number of paragraphs were removed following the Achilli trial as "they were decided by a jury to constitute a libel, June 24, 1852."


    While stating sth bad about a person in English law has to be proven or removed, the Church had no such policy about the reputation of science. If you in 1700 in any work stated that William Harvey's discovery was bunk, while it was certainly accepted by all medical doctors at that point, no one in the Church would have dreamed of gaoling you for disagreeing with science, or for making a statement that not only you hadn't proven, but never could prove.

    The Church's one and only gaoling policy in intellectual affairs was about heresy, in some cases even repented heresy.

  • It is easy to forget that the idea that the sun orbited the earth was not a religious doctrine, but rather the state of the question in astronomy that pre-existed the Church.

    Given no Heliocentric had had any direct trouble with the Church just for being so prior to a Dominican noticing what Galileo did in exegesis, which is precisely a religious question, this is incorrect.

    By the way, the term "sun orbits the earth" is chosing terms that are rich in misunderstanding.

    • In modern physics, "X orbits Y" tends to refer to a Newtonian process, by which X and Y in diverse measure orbit a central point, and the wording X orbits Y refers to the case when the central point is either inside Y or very close to Y, but very far from X, which Newtonian process can only happen in the case of Y being more massive than X. However, no Newtonian physics entered the discussion, and a modern Geocentric would not say that Earth is more massive or that the Sun is directed partly by its inertia and partly by the inward pull of Earth, but rather that Earth's stability is due to some fact stronger than such factors (if either God or an angel for each day causes the Sun to pull graviationally on Earth from all sides, the pull it exerts at 3 am will be neutralised by the pull it exerts at 3 pm (of a given time zone). Or the pull it exerts on Sao Paolo at noon in Sao Paolo, will be neutralised by the pull it exerts on Honshu at noon in Honshu. The Sun will not to us anymore than to Sts Aquinas and Bellarmine be moving daily around earth because of any stronger pull that Earth is exerting on it, but due to other actors.
    • In Riccioli's astronomy, it would be correct to state that an angel is taking the Sun on kind of a daily orbit around earth, so that its longer orbit around the zodiac each year is incidental on this daily orbit lagging behind the daily orbits of stars in the zodiac. But in St. Thomas view, the angel would only be taking the Sun on a yearly orbit around the zodiac, and another one be taking the Moon on a monthly one around the zodiac, while the daily turn was God turning all of the heavens below the Empyrean one around earth, and orbits happen inside that turn.


  • The Ptolemaic system was the best available explanation of the movement of heavenly bodies as yet discovered and would need significant refuting to be overthrown.

    Two problems with this one:

    • There was no scientific community, there was no obligation to have a good or "the best" explanation, society at large and the Church too was not bound in a tielock to astronomy;
    • In fact, St. Robert agreed that Galileo very much had disproven parts of the Ptolemaic system. Just that the Ptolemaic system wasn't the only option for Geocentrism, and Galileo was far from having refuted the position of Tycho Brahe. So are people after his time, the one argument I keep hearing is from Newtonian physics taken as not just a factor that exists, but as the only factor that can affect anything as large and not bound onto a bigger flat surface as Earth or "other" heavenly bodies.


The upshot of this being, no, Galileo was not primarily tried for scientific bad methodology, but for religious bad ideas.

The Church was indeed not "against science" in the Galileo episode, but neither was She acting primarily for science. Galileo really was obliged to abjure what amounted, and still amounts, to bad theology.
/Hans Georg Lundahl