It seems to me that I was taught it sort of like a circle. We know creationism is true because the Bible says it, yes, but the scientific truth of creationism in turn confirms the Bible and proves we can trust it.
From: Rebutting Ken Ham’s Response
What she did most probably misunderstand was when circularity is bad in logic. Or rather, what kind of circularity constitutes a vicious circle.
We know creationism is true because the Bible says it
And because science fails to demonstrate the opposite and sometimes also demonstrates for instance a young earth (salt of seas, remember) or impossibility of mammalian evolution from common ancestor considering chromosome numbers.
yes, but the scientific truth of creationism in turn confirms the Bible and proves we can trust it.
And so do confirmations of a lot of other scientific and historic truths.
No vicious circle. If A proves B and B proves A, the vicious circle is only there if neither is proven by anything else. If both are proven by something else and that something else is ideally no assumption, instead of a vicious circle you have a non-vicious curl in a strong argument. If ever you are confronted with "A proves B and B proves A," don't complain of circularity at the first stop but ask instead if something else than A proves B and if something else than B proves A. Of course, it is a good gut reaction to mark a certain circularity, but not to judge immediately just from that gut reaction. What about:
It seems to me that I was taught it sort of like a circle. We know Earth circling Sun each year is true because the Heliocentric Newtonian model says it, yes, but the scientific truth of Earth circling Sun each year in turn confirms the Heliocentric Newtonian model and proves we can trust it.
No longer a quote, but a meme. Applied to an example she might not spontaneously deny.
So, does something else than Heliocentric Newtonian model conclusively prove Earth circles Sun rather than other way round? Does something else than Earth circling Sun conclusively prove Heliocentric Newtonian model rather than for instance a Tychonian one?
But finding out that if A proves B and B proves A, there is not each and every time a vicious circle was somehow not on my school curriculum. It seems they no longer properly teach logic in these schools? Wonder why? And same question for my finding out Heliocentrism was more doubtful than Globe shape of Earth.
Sts Placidus and Companions,
Disciples of St Bennet,
Martyrs at Messina
Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on Young Earth Creationism Denying Gravity (with a certain levity towards the matter, thank God!)
PS: she did misunderstand one thing more about Creationism, possibly.
But regardless, what was crucial to my deconversion was that I was definitely taught by Answers in Genesis that if creationism is not true, the entire Bible and even Christianity itself falls apart.
Logically, yes, Christianity would not be true without Genesis account being true. And in a sense that excludes Hugh Ross' model or Stephen J. Gould's model.
But Christianity could well be rationally known even if one had no proof confirming Genesis (though one has). Since one has proof confirming the Gospels. The central truth question boils down to "what happened to the body". But the general truth of such a man really walking on earth would be apparent from Christian Churches counting Him (since before their branchings or divisions) as their founder. It is not at all easy to imagine how if He had never existed the Church could have both come into existence from some other start and then forgot its real origins and remembered Him as the real one. Atheists are not usually coming up with plausible scenarios for mythicism any more than for body stolen by disciples (how come they then were martyred for what they themselves knew to be a lie?), but those that take the mythicist position are assuming that is what must have happened. This is now being rivalled by a Christianity was adulterated by Peter-position, as popularised by Dan Brown - equally idiotic, of course./HGL