vendredi 24 mai 2019

Defending a Meme on the Bible


Here is the meme:

Tired of
Fake News?
 
Turn to the
Bible


Wonderful and exact.

A minor problem is, some will claim the Bible is fake news.

Some will claim it because there are thousands of sects interpreting it in different ways (one Evangelical was just defending the very heretical "non-identic-resurrection-bodies" interpretation of 1 Cor 15), and I say, still not fake news, there is the Catholic Church to defend its correct interpretation.

Some will claim so because of not believing Resurrection of Our Lord or miracles in Gospels, and I say, still not fake news, the resurrection is one of the best documented events in the Roman world of the 1:st C AD.

And some will claim Genesis 1 to 11 is "clearly mythical" (whatever "myth" might mean, probably sth having similar literary properties to Greek mythology, which contains correct historic facts, like Ulysses helping to sack Troy and returning to Ithaca or Jason getting the golden fleece), and therefore pretend it is non-factual (as if literary similarities to Greek myths proved that) and therefore the rest of Genesis and of the Bible would be non-factual too.

Well, the last category have one thing right : Genesis 1 to 11 does hang together with rest of Genesis and the rest of the Bible does refer back to it. Seamless garment.

However, there are answers to each, and I am providing them as best as I can from my perspective, and sometimes linking to answers by others too, on three blogs.

Creation vs. Evolution,

somewhere else,

Great Bishop of Geneva!


Creation vs. Evolution defends historical (and therefore also, when relevant, scientific) accuracy of Genesis (mainly) 1 to 11. And not on Tim's blog but somewhere else I provide answers about Resurrection, God's existence (apart from Creationist related arguments), and Biblical history other than Genesis 1 to 11. While under intercessionary prayer of St Francis of Sales who was tha last and the Great Bishop of Geneva! I provide answers against Protestant errors.

Any questions?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibl. Audoux
St. Manahen
24.V.2019

Antiochiae natalis sancti Manahen, qui fuit Herodis Tetrarchae collactaneus, atque, Doctor et Propheta exsistens sub gratia novi Testamenti, in eadem urbe quievit. Item beatae Joannae, uxoris Chusae, procuratoris Herodis, quam Lucas Evangelista commemorat.

mardi 21 mai 2019

Lita Cosner and Robert Carter Still Want to Deny Euphrates and Tigris Being Frat and Hiddekel ...


Anne Habermehl Still Wants Göbekli Tepe After Babel and Neanderthals Post-Flood   Lita Cosner and Robert Carter Still Want to Deny Euphrates and Tigris Being Frat and Hiddekel ...

Their joint article* appeared on tomorrow's date in Australia's time zone (Creation.com is an Australian collective blog plus other site functions : it is connected to blogger or google sites, since it disconnects when I disconnect my blogger account).

I will give their argument and the reason behind their argument.

Contrary to common opinion, the Tigris and Euphrates of Genesis 2 cannot be the modern rivers flowing through Syria and Iraq today, because they do not share the same source.


Granted they do not share the same source either with each other or with pre-Flood Hiddekel and Frat.

That they are not same rivers does not follow.

They would still be same rivers in a sufficient sense if partially same river bed - including if going into the other direction.

Now, Robert and Lita would argue this is impossible:

Think about it—the Flood was global and highly destructive. Huge amounts of sediment were deposited on the continents, and massive amounts of erosion occurred during the Recessive Stage as the waters drained off the continents. Plus, the continental plates moved around, raising mountains and creating deep basins. Why would we expect the modern landscape to reflect the pre-Flood landscape?


The four rivers were the main rivers of the earth. There must have been four water dividers and between them four drainage systems on the whole earth.

A river bed in the centre of the fourth of the world's drainage systems would not be sufficiently covered to totally obfuscate where it ran.

Now, one might argue Euphrates and Tigris are very far from being candidates for such huge rivers.

I would say they are the "closest to source" (to pre-Flood source) remains of it.

I would say that the complete pre-Flood Frat would have started in Jordan, if Holy Land or parts of it were land in pre-Flood times (but see the Elasmosaur arguing Holy Land or parts of it would have been sea) branched into four where we now have Dead Sea and the Frat quarter would have very soon bent into where we now have Euphrates but instead it would have flowed North West. The Zagros Mountains where now Euphrates has its sources are post-Flood, so is Black Sea, so Frat would have continued NW through what is now Black Sea and Danube, and as Danube now arises in post-Flood Alps, while Rhine, Seine and Rhone also do so, it would have continued into one of them or all three or two of them.

One can speculate if this Frat would have continued even further NW into Thames, Liffey, St Lawrence river all the way to the North West corner of the world (Apocalypse 7 says the world has 4 corners, and as it's arguably corners of ha-Eretz, this can be taken as Continents or pre-Flood single Continent and does not imply flatness of the total body). Which would if so be in Alaska.

However, my model very much does argue the Flood shifted things around more places than one.

Main differences immediately post-Flood, Frat is cut into two by Alps, what is North West of them still flowing North West, what is South East of them flowing instead South East, reverse direction, and the outlet being distinct from that of Jordan now (if ever it was connected to Jordan).

Then the rise of Zagros Mountains and the gradual or floodwise filling of Black Sea further divided South East part of original Frat into Danube and Euphrates, with divergence of outlets, which is exactly the situation we have today.

I think so much rearrangements, namely including river beds changing direction due to tectonic movements, would clearly keep in mind how devastating and chaotic the Flood was. On the mean, the Flood was certainly very destructive, but why not allow huge variations into both directions?

Oh, if you have in mind arguing the Elasmosaur could have been transported 500 km, well, such a transport is not unheard of for the Flood, as you have material on yourselves, and as Fr. Fulcran Vigoroux argued for limited Flood still being over a very huge region, but if a boulder arrives after 500 km, it is arguably either diminished in diameter to at least as little as only half of original, or broken away from other similar pieces originally hanging together.

The Elasmosaurs that were transported 500 km did not arrive in shapes fit to be identified as Elasmosaurs.

It is funny that I have answered both arguments earlier, they repeat them, they do not refute what I said, but ignore it.

Creation vs. Evolution : Answering Carter and Cosner on Eden
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2018/06/answering-carter-and-cosner-on-eden.html


Creation vs. Evolution : Trying to Break Down "Reverse Danube" or "Reverse Euphrates" Concept
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2018/07/trying-to-break-down-reverse-danube-or.html


Defending my model against opposite error, by Damien Mackey:

Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : With Damien Mackey on Four Rivers and Related, I to X
http://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2018/07/with-damien-mackey-on-four-rivers-and.html


Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : Continuing Previous, XI to XX - are Nile Rivers Excluded?
http://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2018/07/continuing-previous-xi-to-xx-are-nile.html


Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : Continuing Previous : XXI to XXXIII - getting to Troy (as we Tend to Do) (Update to XXXIX)
http://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2018/07/continuing-previous-xxi-to-xxxiii.html


And about geography of pre-Flood, in general and specifically in defense about their arguments:

Creation vs. Evolution : How Much was Shinar Devastated by the Flood?
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2018/06/how-much-was-shinar-devastated-by-flood.html


Creation vs. Evolution : You Find a Fossil Whale Here, a Fossil Pterosaur There ...
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2018/06/you-find-fossil-whale-here-fossil.html


Lita Cosner and Robert Carter haven't changed their view, I haven't changed mine.

Difference is, when I publish, I refer to the arguments they give and I am refuting, they do not refer to my blog, probably because they have no answer to the refutation I give, and therefore prefer gate-keeping.

If they think my blog is not seen, the blogger stats have 196 221 views as "all time". I think before some of the 196 221 viewers perhaps they would gain in credibility if trying to refute me rather than trying to ignore me.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibl. Audoux
St. Hospice**
21.V.2019

* Where was Eden?
by Lita Cosner and Robert Carter | This article is from
Creation 41(2):36–39, April 2019
https://creation.com/where-was-eden


** Niciae, apud Varum fluvium, sancti Hospitii Confessoris, abstinentiae virtute ac prophetiae spiritu insignis.

lundi 20 mai 2019

Is Genesis as Historical Fact a Roman Catholic Interpretation? Two Witnesses?


By Genesis, I mean very specifically Genesis 1 - 11.

I avoid "history" and prefer "historical fact" because Moses may have done "research" (historia in Greek), but he received most as given tradition, not by research. Historical fact is enough.

By Roman Catholic, I mean over the centuries.

And by Two Witnesses, I invoke these two: Thomas M. - an Evangelical quetioner - and the answer by CMI’s Shaun Doyle.

Thomas M.
Defending an old Roman Catholic interpretation of Genesis 1–11 is NOT defending the Bible—it is defending an interpretation of the Bible that even the Roman Catholic Church abandoned over a century ago as academically indefensible! As the pastor of a theologically conservative evangelical church, ...

Shaun Doyle
One, that the Roman Catholic church interpreted Genesis 1–11 the way we do is no argument against our interpretation. ...


https://creation.com/genesis-as-history

So, Thomas M. (1) and Shaun Doyle (2) agree Roman Catholics embraced Genesis 1 to 11 as history up to a century ago. In two or three witnesses ... btw, I disagree on the idea (taken for granted, perhaps by both, perhaps by only Thomas M., but from sloppiness, not knowledge) that Roman Catholic Church as a whole ditched it as "academically undefensible".

Fr. Fulcran Vigoroux was one century ago, he did not get assent from all of the Church, his compromises were limited to non-world wide Flood and Day-Age and he either did not know of the bones of contention (Cro-Maagnon or Neanderthals) or he considered them as Adamites, within at least LXX timeline.

Comprehension of Mark 10:6 and of Carbon dates makes his compromise by now obsolete, necessitating a forwards to less Biblical or back to more strictly Biblical. And this latter stance is not actually condemned. It is often treated as if, or the issue is even avoided by pretending YECs are sick people, whose stance and arguments need no adressing, that even by "Pope Francis", but it is not as such condemned./HGL

Anne Habermehl Still Wants Göbekli Tepe After Babel and Neanderthals Post-Flood


Anne Habermehl Still Wants Göbekli Tepe After Babel and Neanderthals Post-Flood   Lita Cosner and Robert Carter Still Want to Deny Euphrates and Tigris Being Frat and Hiddekel ...

She also still wants a Biblical chronology calibration for not just carbon dates, but all of uniformitarian or converntional dates, whether carbon or potassium argon.

Here is her paper:

A creationist view of Gӧbekli Tepe: Timeline and other considerations
Proceedings of the Eighth International Conference on Creationism, 2018, by Anne Habermehl
https://www.academia.edu/39154731/A_creationist_view_of_G%D3%A7bekli_Tepe_Timeline_and_other_considerations


Here I cite parts of her timeline from figures 3 and 4 (parallel timelines for Masoretic Text - MT - and Septuagint Text - LXX - which is good, better than just MT).

figure 3
Conv. Biblical MT
 
Acheulean, 1.76 mya Babel/Peleg born 2250 BC
End of Neanderthals, 23 000 BC
Göbekli Tepe 10 000 BC end of ice age c. 2040 BC
Nile Delta formed 6000 BC
Beg. First Dynasty c. 3000 BC Abraham in Egypt 1920 BC


figure 4
Conv. Biblical LXX
 
Acheulean, 1.76 mya Babel/Peleg born 2570 BC
End of Neanderthals, 23 000 BC
Göbekli Tepe 10 000 BC end of ice age c. 2170 BC
Nile Delta formed 6000 BC
Beg. First Dynasty c. 3000 BC Abraham in Egypt 1920 BC


I have omitted the BC century dates, on the Biblical side which do not serve calibration, but only general overview.

I could not copy the figures and insert them as images here.

Now, what is wrong here?

On my view, more than one thing. Here:

  • "conventional dating" is not one dating method and can therefore not have one calibration to Biblical chronology;
  • I consider anything dated as over 100 000 years ago as dated most probably by potassium argon, therefore worthless as date, valuable only as to see how deep the volcanic eruption was in how cold water, perhaps whatever you like from the Flood or perhaps you could (at least at Laetolil) give "later and shallower, less cool water" as Flood proceeded;
  • which would prove that Acheulean was used up to Flood, somewhere;
  • I also consider Neanderthals as pre-Flood;
  • I also consider Neanderthal extinction as Flood;
  • I had also heard of no Neanderthal biological remains (unlike tools) carbon dated to more recent as 40 000 (Gorham cave has a level with more recent dates and Neanderthal type tools, Habermehl considered my conjecture about how it came to pass as novel writing, fine, I write fan fiction, and as she would not be taken seriously if trying it, fine, I am happy not to be hampered by such Academic decorum;
  • I consider Peleg as born 401 years after Flood in Roman Martyrology chronology (LXX without Second Cainan), and 529 in George Syncellus (LXX with Second Cainan). Either of them, this place fits very neatly to carbon dates (ignoring all non-carbon in post-Flood chronology) like those of either early or late Göbekli Tepe, I opt for late, as I consider Göbekli Tepe as Babel;
  • I also consider there is no such thing as a Biblical date for end of ice age. Beginning of ice age, sure, Flood. End? No.


If I had had my usual allotment of normal library card in Nanterre University Library, instead of one hour this morning and doing this in a cyber, I might have actually read lots more of her paper.

As it is, somewhat sullenly, I concentrated on what's wrong.

I don't think she has any fresh arguments against my positions since our debates, and she doesn't cite me as someone she has refuted. I. e. she thinks it is OK to ignore me because I am no Academic in the field.

I'll link to our previous debates in an appendix under my signature, as well as to my own table in another one.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre
St. Bernard of Siena OFM
20.V.2019

Appendix I

Label Habermehl on this blog:
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/search/label/Habermehl


Possible other mentions here:
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/search?q=Habermehl


Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : With Habermehl 2017, I
http://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2018/11/with-habermehl-2017-i.html


Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : With Habermehl 2017, II
https://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2018/11/with-habermehl-2017-ii.html


Appendix II

Creation vs. Evolution : Bricks at Göbekli Tepe or Close?
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2019/03/bricks-at-gobekli-tepe-or-close.html


Scroll down to "Citing relevant parts of my latest carbon table:" or read it in full on:

Creation vs. Evolution : Refining table Flood to Abraham - and a doubt
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2018/05/refining-table-flood-to-abraham-and.html


Appendix III

Other on Babel as Göbekli Tepe:

Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : With Mackey on Haman and on Babel
https://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2019/03/with-mackey-on-haman-and-on-babel.html


Creation vs. Evolution : Ten Keys to my Idea of Göbekli Tepe as Babel and its Tower as a Rocket
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2019/04/ten-keys-to-my-idea-of-gobekli-tepe-as.html

mardi 14 mai 2019

Can Moses have Written the Pentateuch? Answering Linguists


There is a narrative which goes about likethis (I think I've seen it around AronRa, Bill Ludlow or someone like that):

"Moses could not have written the Torah, because it is in Hebrew which didn't yet exist back in his time."

We have fairly good evidence in some cases for texts not being from when claimed to be, since in a later language. I think I saw a confession of Albigensians or Waldensians, purported to be from 11th or 12th or 13th C. and to be identically republished, and which was in a French of the 16th Century. I do not believe it was genuine, but it is now some time ago, if I should happen to be wrong, blame my memory.

But this evidence type uniformly only exists because of a massive text corpus outside the text so tested, either from then or from later times.

It also presupposes the text as tested by linguistics hasnot been syestematically updated since the first redaction : that we are either dealing with supposed autograph or acopy supposed to be orthographically, morphologically, verbally identic to it.

Imagine you took a modern English translation or translitteration or adaption of Canterbury Tales. You could prove Chaucer could not have written:

When April with his showers sweet with fruit
The drought of March has pierced unto the root


since in his day, you would instead have written:

Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,


that would be a methodological error, since the text as per originally Chaucer's text indeed does have precisely:

Whan that Aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote,


and what you are testing is an adapted version or perversion - in this case faithful to the word, except for expanding "shoures soote" to "showers sweet with fruit" - but this is fairly necessary, since "sweet" no longer has any form rhyming with "root".

So, the simplest approach, perhaps, and one I have taken and been content with before, has been to say Moses perhaps wrote the text in a language older than what is now "Hebrew" to us, and since then the kohanim have faithfully reproduced original meaning by changing a spelling here or an ending there or a contraction or non-contraction there (media waw-yod, for instance?) or even replacing an obsolete word or adding a correct explanation as language changed.

I was thinking of "Asason Thamar which is En Geddi" but that is Paralipomenon or Chronicles, a later work, redacted by kohanim over time and the added explanation could be there since before the final redaction of original full text.

But there might be a case for thinking one might go further.

Chaucer initiates the version of Middle English which is most comprehensible to speakers or Modern English without special study (confer his contempoirary, the Gawain poet in West Midlands, who needed a translation, provided by Tolkien, better known for being original author of The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings). But there are other authors within a century after him. Their lives and times are known, and so are quite a few of their works. There are private letters from an estate that have been studied. We can say with certainty that "shoures" is much likelier than "showers" and that "soote" has at least equal probability with "sweete" and that either way, as with "roote" the final e was pronounced and written.

And what is more : we can affirm this pertains to the exact same speech community that Chaucer belonged to.

In other words, to dislodge even one text from its place in a series of authors, who are more firmly or more loosely distributed in time, we don't rely primarily on "final e went silent this time and then dropped out of use or remained in another function" (here is one other function, when we write "clothes" instead of "cloaths" we indicate both that o is long as well as with writing oa, and also that th is voiced); but rather, we can use such linguistic data only as a shortcut (and detail specific clarification) to : no other author in Chaucer's time would have written:

When April with his showers sweet with fruit
The drought of March has pierced unto the root


Note, archaism is a standing possibility, especially in spelling. People do write Chaucerian English now and then for fun, and could have done so because written English had been fixed in usage earlier also. It wasn't because of Latin being England's official language of administration and jurisdiction.

And that no other author in "Chaucer's" time is precisely what is lacking for the argument as outlined above.

We have the texts of the Bible. Our historic indications for them are they were written by the Biblical authors. We also have a few ostraka and other short texts from archaeological digs. That is what we have for how Hebrew as spoken in times of Biblical authors "sounded like". Or how it was spelled - though there are known changes in spelling, like introduction of matrices lectionis and of dots now in use. We also have digs frompresumably non-Hebrew towns, like Ugarit, where we can (between Ugarit and 500 BC Edomite texts for instance) observe some kind of linguistic development in related languages, spoken by neighbouring speech communities. Related and neighbouring, not identic.

If you say (I make this example as a non-specialist who knows exactly one verse of the Hebrew Bible by heart), "Moses could not have written 'beresheet' because and Edomite text from five centuries later stillhas another word in such a form as to suggest it would have been rather 'bereshihit'*" you are arguing as if Germany could not have had (by now most dialects) uvular R in 1700 because by then some dialect in Sweden North of Scania still had retroflex R. But Sweden and Germany are not same speech community and if Swedish was influenced by German, partly via Danish, some changes occurred later in Swedish (even clearer : German has "das" in Middle Ages, while Swedish still had "thet", now "det" which changed only at the end of 17th Century). Similarily, some changes can have occurred later in Edomite than in Hebrew, and Hebrew having a literature, which Edomite had not, can have influenced Edomite. And Moabite, Ammonite and Phoenician, of course too.

So, evidence about chronology of language change in extra-Hebrew dialects is not proof against them already having occurred by the time of Moses' authorship.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibl. Crimée
St Pontius, martyr**
14.V.2019

* Or whatever, "bereshihit" being spoof example. ** In Gallia sancti Pontii Martyris, cujus praedicatione et industria postquam duo Philippi Caesareae ad Christi fidem conversi sunt, ipse, sub Valeriano et Gallieno Principibus, martyrii palmam adeptus est.

Chaucer modern and original cited from:

The Canterbury Tales
The General Prologue
https://tigerweb.towson.edu/duncan/chaucer/duallang1.htm


Updates next day:

  • 1) I corrected the Latin of the martyrology. Typos on the site I copied from.
  • 2) It was not on Bill Ludlow's media that I had heard above, he told me (I asked both him and AronRa).
  • 3) I omitted to say, one dialect can actually develop to becoming identic or near identic to another one. Scanian started out as a Danish dialect and is now a Swedish dialect. Papamiento started out as a a Portuguese based creole and is now through relexicalization a Spanish based one. So, along with conservatism of Biblical Hebrew through the Bible, the Phoenician, Edomite, Moabite and Ammonite languages can have developed to identity with a much older Biblical Hebrew - especially, since what often changes fastest is vowels, and oldest spelling of Hebrew didn't mark these. Even today you have different pronunciations like Beth and Beith, Shabbat and Shabbes, Yisrael and Yisroel (I think I saw somewhere).
  • 4) There is a documentary by Tim Mahoney where a man presumably from Temple Institute (?) says of a very early find : "I can read it! This etching, this inscription, somewhere in the Sinai desert, is actually plain Biblical Hebrew" (1:09 to 1:17 in the video Patterns of Evidence: The Moses Controversy (Long Trailer) which came out yesterday's date in a timezone further West than my post was written).

dimanche 5 mai 2019

The ultimate bonus of Geocentrism


Shared : Lita's defense · Robert Sungenis Published a Book · Shorty with William P. Lazarus on Geocentrism · The ultimate bonus of Geocentrism

Kudos to Lita Cosner for taking on Patricia B., when not argued in detail that requires detailed response, such things simply antagonise me. She makes von Däniken nearly (not quite) look normal by comparison.

Now, in her response, she said:

But His resurrection was an actual resurrection that left the tomb empty. Otherwise the Jews would not have had to invent the story that the disciples stole the body.


In an earlier article:

We know that God is Spirit, and angels are spirits. While in the Old Testament, both God and angels took on physical forms that could eat and otherwise interact with the environment, in the spiritual realm they have no need of a physical body. Humans are beings composed of both body and spirit; we were created to exist in the physical realm. So Paul says that we don’t long to be unclothed (i.e. to be disembodied spirits) but to be further clothed (i.e. to receive a better body 2 Corinthians 5:4).


Nuance : we long to receive SAME body in a better state.

Christ did not receive another body which had not had hands pierced by nails.

This means, Heaven needs to be a place.

In fact, it is and is described in Apocalypse.

This means, Christ up there still has flesh and blood which can be "bilocated" in the sacrament. His body still makes Him son of Mary.

Some evangelicals deny this.

Heliocentrism with "heaven is in another dimension" clearly plays into their hands./HGL

mercredi 1 mai 2019

Robert Sungenis Published a Book


Shared : Lita's defense · Robert Sungenis Published a Book · Shorty with William P. Lazarus on Geocentrism · The ultimate bonus of Geocentrism

Here:

Geocentrism for Dumskies and Smart Kids, Vol. 1, The Science
http://flatearthflatwrong.com/product/geocentrism-for-dumskies-and-smart-kids-vol-1-the-science/


When I look at the content preview on the front, I wonder whether parallax not working for "4 light years" as per 0.76 arc seconds annual "parallax" is within the "and much more".

I also wonder whether he took any account of Angelic Movers, or was as content as Kepler with purely mechanic causes after God creating things (a position rejected by Riccioli).

I have expressed doubts on whether his and the Croatian physicist Luka Popov's model for Earth staying in centre as per gyroscopic effect will hold water and submit it is not necessary, unless you want every thing arranged by mechanistic causes, no angels and no divine fiat after creation (apart from the two solar miracles in OT times and the solar miracles at Calvary and Fatima).

Anyway, it beats the "normal" rigmarole of "heliocentrism is proven fact" and "how can a huge sun orbit a small earth?" and "are you saying God is playing tricks on us to make a Geocentric universe look Heliocentric?" by several horselengths!

Best wishes!

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Joseph the Workman
1.V.2019