lundi 18 septembre 2017

Pat Robertson Called Dinos 65 Million Years Old Because of Carbon Dating?

Here is one still from a video clip with automatic subtitles:

Here is the video, listen if the subs were wrong:

Pat Robertson: Dumb to Believe in Young Earth Creationism
David Pakman Show | Ajoutée le/ added 15 mai 2014

Shall we take another still, from Young Turks?

Pat Robertson v Ken Ham: EPIC THROWDOWN over Earth's Age
The Young Turks | Ajoutée le / added 19 mai 2014

Well, it seems - I think two subtitles both showing he connects radio carbon to 65 million years are a bit odd, if he said something else - he does connect a figure like 65 million years to a dating method like carbon dating.

Too bad.

No carbon dating actual scientific user would do that. Guess why? 60 000 years is less than 1000 times shorter time:

Let's take ten times what we said, less than a 100dth of 65 million years:

Carbon 14 Dating Calculator
[same site, both images]

In other words, how do you distinguish zero percent carbon 14 of the modern atmospheric level as in 600 000 years from equally zero percent as in 65 000 000 years? You can't.

So, Pat Robertson, while having a business bargain involved in petrol, involved in "rotting dinosaurs", may be well founded on the stock market of petrol, but has no clue as to the carbon dating of either petrol, dinosaur bones or other things, as far as we can gather from this clip. Perhaps he has improved since then, perhaps he hasn't.

But supposing he has improved, he at least used to share an attitude which very many still share today : a very huge confidence (or inversely suspicion) about carbon dates, without no real clue as to its conditions.

Now, suppose a thing, bone, tooth, piece of wood, sample, piece of charcoal, is carbon dated to 60 000 years ago. That means the carbon 14 in relation to carbon 12 is 0.07 % of what the carbon 14 in relation to carbon 12 is in today's atmosphere or a recent sample. It is the carbon 14 which machines can detect directly. The years are a conventional and programmed translation of it.

That leaves open the question how many of these years are real years of decaying carbon 14 content in sample, and how many of them are due to lower original carbon 14 content in atmosphere, before it rose to present level. Conventional dating says "zero" to the latter and therefore "all 60 000 years" to the former. And decaying level in sample for 60 000 years is a decay which normally takes 60 000 years to go through.

However, if the Flood is carbon dated to 40 000 years ago (0.792 % of the present carbon level left in samples from Flood), and the Flood was 2957 BC, 4974 years ago (we have 54.788 % of original content), this means the level at Flood would have been ...

0.00792 / 0.54788 = 0.014456

... 1.4456 % of present level. And if carbon 14 content rose from zero to 1.4456 % of present level before the Flood, well, for one it was rising slower, even forming of new carbon was slower than now, at least in relation to carbon 12 content of atmosphere, and for another, we can find a level from which the decay counted in actual years (somewhere between 4974 and 7216 - from which we would have 41.774 % left of any sample, if the isotope existed then) would leave us with the above mentioned 0.07 % of the present level. Let's try it.

0.0007 / 0.41774 = 0.0016757
0.0007 / 0.54788 = 0.0012777

So, between zero and 1.4456 %, the level is somewhere corresponding to between 0.12777 and 0.16757 %. That is, one tenth up. I don't think it means sth dated 60 000 BP is from year of Creation 224, but I'd rather think of a curve creeping near bottom for some time before it starts to rise.

If we instead assume the Flood was 5383 and the Creation 7526 years ago, you need to make minor adjustments to previous, but not to outright ditch the whole setup. And, in reverse direction, for the minor adjustments, if you take Flood 4365 years ago and Creation 6021 years ago.

So, the dinosaurs then have zero carbon 14, which means they were fossilised at creation, right? No. They do get carbon dates within the carbon range.

Some time ago, not sure up to exactly when, the carbon range was back to "40 000 BP", but we have dinos dated to younger than that, right Mr Armitage, 28 000 BP or sth?

And others outside the older but inside the younger limit like a Triceratops dated to 41 010 BP:

More recently, Brian Thomas and Vance Nelson carbon dated a number of dinosaur fossils including two specimens from Triceratops horridus.3 The two specimens gave a date in years of 33,570±20 and 41,010±220.4

And notes:

3)Thomas, B. and Nelson, V., Radiocarbon in Dinosaur and Other Fossils, CRSQ 51:299–311, ‎‎2015‎. Return to text.
4)A sample purporting to be from the Flood era would not be expected to give a ‘radiocarbon age’ of about 5,000 years, but rather 20,000–50,000 years. Indeed, that is consistently what one obtains from specimens of oil, gas and fossil wood from layers allegedly ‘millions of years’ old. The reason is: radiocarbon dating assumes that the current 14C/12C ratio of about 1 in a trillion (after adjusting for the Industrial Revolution) was the starting ratio for the objects dated. But this ratio would have been much smaller before the Flood due to the fact that the earth had a much stronger magnetic field. Because pre-and para-Flood objects would have started with a much lower initial 14C/12C ratio, the measured amount today would also be smaller, and be (mis-)interpreted as much older. See What about carbon dating? Chapter 4, The Creation Answers Book. Return to text.

And source:

Triceratops soft tissue
Feedback archive → Feedback 2016
Published: 19 November 2016 (GMT+10)

You noted from pictures from Carbon 14 Dating Calculator that the present level of reliable detection is between 55 000 and 60 000 years? Good, this means you should realise even the higher value of Triceratops date is within detactable, and not just because zero carbon 14 used to be read "at least 40 000 years old" as back in those days.

I just hope Pat Robertson is not involved in some Transatlantic scheme to teach me a lesson or two while I am in France. He might have rather some lessons to learn from me, unless he's too old for that or already got it from someone else.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St Joseph of Cupertino

PS, isn't he also claiming Ussher was both "Middle Ages" and "1800's"?

James Ussher (or Usher; 4 January 1581 – 21 March 1656)

Quoted from wikipedia. As following:

In the history of Europe, the Middle Ages or Medieval Period lasted from the 5th to the 15th century.

Do I need a reference for 1581-1656 not being in 1800's?/HGL

vendredi 15 septembre 2017

Short Reply to CMI (?) - Sorry, it's a Long One! - On Babel and After

  • 1) You are perfectly right human language is too complex for evolving from ape "language".

    However, the correct way of putting this is that every "statement" of an ape, is a unitary signal. This limits the number of signals to the avilable number of sounds, strength of voice also taken into account, and gestures.

    In human language, a statement is composed of or articulated into one or often MORE parts, known as words or morphemes, each bearing a meaning with a logical relation to the meaning of the statment as a whole, and these in turn are articulated into further smaller units, NOT bearing logical relation to the meaning of the morpheme or word as a whole. These even smaller units are called phonemes, and are in spoken language known either as "language sounds" or "letters" and in written language (with alphabetic writing), known as "letters" (sometimes graphemes are distinguished from phonemes).

    Both of these articulation which magnify the number of possible statements even while reducing the number of unitary signals a speaker must master, into infinity, are lacking from ape "language".

  • 2) Original complexity and degeneration is however NOT a linguistically documented fact.

    I am quoting you:

    Hence both Juola and Bane define complexity according to those aspects which can be quantified and analyzed mathematically; but without wishing to belittle these studies the question still needs to be asked, “Can language—and its complexity—be reduced to mathematics in this way?” Furthermore, these studies deal with contemporary languages on the plane of the present: no attempt is made to explicate any sort of historical trend to simplification.

    Yet, even with their approach and criteria, it is significant that in Bane’s study, where he selects twenty languages for comparison, the most ancient language of his group, viz. Latin, comes out as the most complex, while Bislama—one of his ‘Creole’ group, appears near the bottom of his list as a very simple language, as indeed it is.

    I am sorry, but this is not what Bane said. I looked up your reference, and it said something else:

    Bane, M., Quantifying and Measuring Morphological Complexity; in: Chang, C.B. and Haynie, H.J. (Eds.), Proceedings of the 26th West Coast Conference on Formal Linguistics, Somerville, pp. 69–76, 2008.

    Did you catch the nuance? He said nothing about complexity of a language as a whole. He said something about complexity in a specified area : morphological complexity.

    Now, the thing is, morphological complexity is usually at inverse ratio with syntactic one. It is not simplifying relation of morphemes, but reshuffling it.

    English indeed had, morphologically, four cases for nouns, five for adjectives and pronouns in the time of King Alfred, and now has general case for all nouns, s-genitive for nouns denoting persons, genitive or related adjective plus nominative vs oblique case for pronouns, no case forms at all for adjectives.

    This is a reduction.

    But on the other hand, in the time of King Alfred, English had basically two tenses, past and present. You don't find many futures, you don't find many pluperfects or perfects, these come once in a while, perhaps (though I don't recall getting them explained in Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer), but future meaning is mainly represented by present form, pluperfect or perfect by past form.

    Now English has sixteen tenses. Past and present remain the simple forms, but you have three more parameters expressed in quasimorphological, phraseological ways:

    • continuous vs simple ("where are you going" would have been equivalent of "where goest thou" in KA's time)
    • perfect vs non-perfect ("I have [already] eaten" would have been "I ate already", precisely as "I ate" would have been "I ate")
    • future vs non-future ("I will go there" would have been "I go there", "I would go there" would have been - older sense - "I went theretoward" or "I willed to go there" - or - younger sense - replaced by present or past subjunctive).

    This means that the focus of morphological complexity has changed, and one can consider "analytical forms" (extra words) as "less complex" (needing fewer forms to learn separately) in morphology than "synthetic forms". But the complexity of meaning remains roughly the same.

    Also, vaunting morphological complexity as a a superiority is placing Sanskrit higher than Hebrew, since Sanskrit has higher both verbal and nominal complexity in morphology, Hebrew replacing it with stricter rules of syntax.

    But the original language was arguably Hebrew, therefore, your point of view is derogatory to the sacredness of Hebrew.

    Also, some racialists have pretended that Creoles are a sign of mental inferiority of black men, while the morphological complexity of Creoles arguably comes from them learning Portuguese, English or Dutch by replacing words in their own original West African languages, which, precisely like Chinese (hardly a simple language!) is putting the complexity burden on syntax rather than on morphology.

    If you take a sentence in English and a sentence in a Creole, and analyse the morphemes, they will be of similar or same number, probably not as often marking plural if understood, but in the Creole all of them will be separated by spaces, in English some will be joined into words of more than one morphem.

    And since Latin is a language you pretend to respect here (rightly so), though not over Hebrew (rightly so, once again), I can tell you my Latin professor Birger Bergh thought exactly the same things. Languages are as complex as the speakers need in vocabulary, and they are as potentially complex in logical relations, the difference being how many complexities have to be expressed, not how many can.

    When we say Sumerian is complex that is not a subjective judgment as to whether it is difficult (or easy) for person X to learn, but is so in its structure, its inflections and categories.

    An inflectional category is : how much complexity of meaning you are forced to show, not how much you can show.

    Finnish can, but need not, express whether a single person referred to is masculine or feminine, the pronoun being for both "hän" : this identic pronoun has nothing to do with gender theory, Finns are much more machist than Swedes, precisely as Russians are more machist than English (thugh Russian makes the difference in pronoun choice).

    We can see this, for example, in the Sumerian noun with its ten cases (!)

    Well, Finnish only has fifteen, what a reduction ! Assuming they are related, which perhaps they are. (Oh, that would be an increase!)

    but also class (personal and non-personal)

    Finnish too makes a distinction between "hän" and whatever they use for "it" - precisely as English, unlike French and Hebrew, does not replace "it" with either "he" or "she". Bantu languages lack gender and have a more intricate class system - right now - than either Finnish or Sumerian.

    One could indeed go on citing examples of ancient languages as to their complexity, their subtle nuances, their economy of words to express, at times, quite extensive sentences, and in turn the gradual loss of some of these nuances over the passage of time, but the point should nevertheless be clear. What can be stated emphatically is that evolutionary theory is at a loss to explain this phenomenon of original complexity and subsequent degeneration.

    Being lyrical about complexity of old languages (partly rightly, partly by misplaced apprehensions as a learner) does not justify claiming languages went downhill since then.

    The point of view comes from i a Grimm, who were not even Christians : have you read their text "supposing God had a language"? It is awful!

  • 3) Different phonemes coalesce, granted, but they compensate too.

    Latin had ten vowels, five long, five short. Plus perhaps also a schwa like vowel, which is variously spelled u or i in short internal syllables, between stem and ending : volumus and regimus need not have had different vowels before the m, it could have been voll-uh-mooss, rayg-uh-mooss, conventional different spelling (the spelling regumus exists). So, ten or eleven.

    These are reduced to seven detectable diverse vowels (detectable as bottlenecks for original Latin vowels), in most, not all, Romance languages, when long and short cease to make a difference, and then we have some explosions of new differences. Why is there an i in French pied, Spanish pié? Because Latin "pedem" had a short e. Makes an open e in proto-Romance, and that gives this diphthong, in a stressed syllable. Spanish perhaps has only seven sounds for stressed syllables (a, ie, e, i, ue, o, u), but French really explodes the variations.

    Also, when words originally distinct become homophones, one word tends to get replaced or modified. In what was becoming French, solum (soil, floor, ground) and solem (Sun) began to coalesce, and one word was modified, the French for Sun comes not from "solem" but from "soliculum", diminutive for "solem". Language change is not just thughtless evolution downhill, but also intelligent design uphill.

  • 4) language families :

    Greek and Latin belong to the Indo-European family; so too does Hittite, although the decipherment of the cuneiform script and its classification as Indo-European came as a shock to the system for Near Eastern scholars. Meanwhile, Linear B, since its decipherment by Michael Ventris, has been clearly recognized as an early form of Greek, a discovery which also upset the hitherto fond theories of scholars.

    Greek belongs to an identifiable person in table of nations : Iavan. Latin belongs to no one in particular in that list.

    Hittite seems to belong to a Canaanite, since the first born of Canaan was Heth. Actually, Hattic (Hattili in Hittite) may have been an earlier language of that stem, while Hittite (Nesili in Hittite) came from neighbouring descendants of Gomer ... except for one detail. It is related to Lydian, and the Lud in Anatolia was the Semitic Lud.

    And one scholar has pretended to identify Linear A as related to Indic and Iranian languages, to Vedic Sanskrit and to Avestic Old Persian. But since Crete was the land of Caphthorim, this places another Indo-European subfamily within ... yes : Ham.

    So, it is far safer to assume after Babel some 72 unrelated families exploded, and some of them started coalescing, like Assur and Chanaaen adopting languages related to the Hebrew of men like Abraham, or some may have had original affinities with Hebrew planted there by God, like Egyptian of Misraim was very similar in some very rough and general respects to Hebrew, like feminines in -t, like bi- or triliteral roots and so on.

    Ethiopians coming from Ham (from his son Kush) at least in part speak a language related to Hebrew, Gheez (and Amharic, which could be considered as "modern Gheez" or modern form of some sister language to Gheez). There was not ever a real linear simple decline for some of these languages, or even simple development, since they were in contact with each other.

    Your distinctions among ancient Near East families are, unlike your sharing the IE protolanguage craze, though somewhat discretely here, unobjectionable, as far as I can see.

    Making Etruscan descend from Thiraz is interesting : do you think Turkish and Hungarian also comes from him? Because, both genetics and linguistics are tying Etruscans to Hungarian and Asiatic origins, though some violently dispute this.

    See Alinei on this one (he dates proto-Indo-European to 10 000 BC or at least BP, which means he gives me a motive as Creationist to dispute original unity of this family).

    In regard to structure, the Etruscan noun has inflections for each of five cases; however, there is no gender distinction in common nouns, only with proper names.

    Sounds very Fenno-Ugric, except the five cases are comparatively few, closer to Turkish.

    Apart from the inevitable loan words from Greek, its vocabulary is sui generis, albeit some words passed into Latin as the latter took over as the language of the Italian Peninsula (figure 3).

    Except Alinei has shown this is wrong, many words become clearer and this in ways making short inscriptions intelligible (as opposed to totally garbled) if compared to Hungarian ones. What was the Etruscan version of Gyula again? Tried to check with Alinei, but this computer on Nanterre University Library does not allow me to open this pdf:

    I suspect it was Etruscan ZIL, ZILA, as given in this defense of Alinei (who has been attacked):

    I applaud on the other hand this information:

    Finally in this survey of very ancient languages there are the Indus Valley texts. Widely regarded as indecipherable since their discovery in the early 20th century, Barry Fells attempted a decipherment in the 1970s following methods similar to those of Michael Ventris in his work on the Linear B script. His conclusion was that the script was alphabetic, with six vowels and 24 consonants, while the language, again complex in structure, was clearly Indo-European, in turn a direct ancestor of Sanskrit.

    If Barry Fells is correct, this means Caphthorim either were both on Crete and in Indus Valley (one could imagine commercial reasons, like for Chanaaenans to be in both Lebanon and Tunisia) or the Caphthorim on Crete were sharing a language with some other post-Flood tribe in Indus Valley (btw, Indus Valley is according to my recalibration of carbon 14 rather close after Babel), or, Hebrews knew one, but not both places where the Caphthorim went - assuming of course the French linguist who removed his site was right in supposing Linear A to be Aryan, in supposing he had identified Mitra-Varuna and Indra (Mount Ida, on Crete = Mount Indra, with Indra as Hindoo name for whoever Zeus was).

    The same could be said for the various other ancient languages of the Fertile Crescent: there is no evidence at all that any of the postulated ‘proto-languages’ ever existed. Bonfante does not venture to talk of a ‘proto-Etruscan’, but contents himself with the simple assertion that “the Etruscans were a pocket of non-Indoeuropean speakers in an area where everyone else spoke an Indoeuropean language”.55 The one possible exception to this scenario is the Indo- European family itself (biblically the Japhetic stream): there may have been an ancestor, a ‘proto-Indoeuropean’, for Luwian, Palaic, and Hittite, but even this is conjectural. In all, they are merely theoretical constructs, born ultimately of evolutionary assumptions.

    Indo-Europeans are neither purely Japhethic (see Anatolian Lud, in Shem's posterity in Genesis 10, see Caphthorim and - if Regma came to North India / Pakistan - also Regma for Hamite Indo-Europeans), nor the only Japhetics, since the Turks are very arguably Japhethic.

    Also, as language similarities go, Indo-European is by far the loosest language group I know of, perhaps rivalled by Ural-Altaic, and superseded only by the tenuous (not main sream, but required by Evolutionist logic) Nostratic and its rival Na Dene-Caucasian. Proto-Semitic is as unproblematic as Proto-Germanic : neither is documented, but both are probable on the ground of language similarities, if one did not have the problem with Proto-Semitic that one "descendent" of it, Hebrew, came before it.

    One could imagine Heber and his sons Peleg and Joctan were speaking Proto-Semitic, and that the tradition from early patriarchs, whether by word of mouth or by cuneiform tablets, changed pronunciation to either Aramaic or Hebrew, whichever of the two was the language of Abraham. Meanwhile, some people took over - as much and best they could - Proto-Semitic from them, because land of Chanaan was a bit narrow to have the language differences given from table of nations : instead of Jebusites and Moabites and Tyrians speaking widely divergent languages, we find historically and archaeologically attested Tyrians and Moabites spoke roughly same language as Biblical Hebrew, while Jebusites had no linguistic problems either communicating with Abraham (supposing as I do Melchisedec was a Jebusite, Masoretic and Jewish people will disagree) or getting conquered by King David.

    One could imagine that the real Proto-Semitic was either Biblical Hebrew or very close (Shalaam having neither become Shaloom, nor Salaam), and that the relationship with Proto-Semitic as reconstructed has been bungled : what sound changes to what is, excepting mergers, not totally clear. Supposing that IE family had an original unity, one can say Germanic emerged, on consonant side of phonemes, by Grimm and Verner sound changes, and Phrygian also independently had a Grimm like sound change : OR one can say Verner was the sound change leading to Germanic, while most non-Germanic versions (but not Phrygian!) come from an anti-Grimm sound change. There is no impossibility phonetically, when I discussed this with a linguist heavily prejudiced against Creationism, his main objection was it is not economic.

    Similarily, the sound changes "from Proto-Semitic to Hebrew" could, excepting the mergers (Verner involves a merger, and is therefore clinched) have gone, all or most of them, other way round.

    Ugaritic could fit either scenario : as a real Proto-Semitic very close to the Hebrew then spoken (and Hebrew Bibles, Masoretic, Samaritan or LXX identic fragments in Qumran have been phonetically updated to include sound changes since Moses presumably wrote sth close to Ugaritic), or Ugaritic can be derived from this movement of trying to learn Hebrew and partly failing.

    Obviously a Hebraist could imagine objections I don't even dream of, I have not studied Hebrew myself.

    This parallels my own earlier, and better founded, observations on Hittite, which seem not to have been totally lost on CMI:

    Hittite could well be seen as an ancestral Indo-European language.

    Especially if mergers deduced from Hittite spelling are really imprecisions in its spelling. But note, even then, Indo-European languages are very unequally in closeness to Hittite or indeed to any imagined or real language.

  • 5) Shinar:

    Whether an occurrence in an Egyptian text of šngr or a similar occurrence in an Amarna letter of Sa-an-ha-ar refer to the biblical Shin‘ar, i.e. Lower Babylonia, is disputed, the Hebrew is nevertheless clear, even if extra-biblical references are not. According to Genesis 11:2 the confusion of languages occurred in “the land of Shin‘ar”, also mentioned in Genesis 10:10 and 14:1. That this name refers to Lower Mesopotamia is undoubted: the association with other known cities of that region in Genesis 10:10, and the destination of Shin‘ar for the Jewish exiles in Daniel 1:2, make the identification certain.

    No, the word Shinar can equally be considered as all of Mesopotamie, including Assyria and beyond, which means Göbekli Tepe is not excluded. Also, confer the fact that geographic names can get restricted areas. "Australia" in early 19th C. used to refer not just to "Ulimaroa"* and Tasmania, but include Easter Island and New Zealand too - as is now referred to as Oceania. Louisiana of the Louisiana Purchase is a larger area than Louisiana as a State. The place names also are actually not quite as clinching as imagined. Are you aware there is a city called Ur near Göbekli Tepe? Urfa. Also known as Edessa. Has by orientals been credited with being Abraham's hometown, Ur of the Chaldees. Here a man considers it likelier as referring to Erech, Uruk, if I get him right:

    TheHoloGrid : The Builders of Gobekli Tepe, the Tower of Babel and the Saturn Myth Part I

    I obviously disagree with datings like considering anything in Edessa as 13 500 years old. I do however note that if that statue has six fingers, it could be one of someone who "began to be a giant" (Nimrod comes to mind).

    And there is a Harran not far from Urfa.

    It is also close enough to ... "Including Neolithic sites such as, Çatalhöyük (7500 BC – 5700 BC) with evidence of bull worship."

    Hmm, 7500 BC = 1100 years after 8600 BC or end of Göbekli Tepe ...

    Let's do some redating ... on my Interim III recalibration, I am using the Syncellus chronology, not the one from Roman martyrology, but here goes:

    2699 BC

    XVII 2698 BC
    53.577 pmc 7857 BC

    XVIII 2657 BC
    55.763 pmc 7486 BC

    Shelah +
    2633 BC


    Eber +
    2459 BC

    XXIII 2453 BC
    68.105 pmc 5629 BC

    With Babel / Göbekli Tepe ending [XV] 2780 BC in this scenario, Çatalhöyük begins rather close to:

    2780 BC
    2657 BC
    =123 years

    ... to 123 years after Babel. And Çatalhöyük lasts :

    "7486 BC" = 2657 BC
    "5629 BC" = 2453 BC
    = "1857 years" = 204 years.

    Well, that aside was a bit non-linguistic, but to return to Shinar, I have found it defined as = Mesopotamia rather than as = Sumer or lower Babylonia. so, yes, Göbekli Tepe could very well be Babel, and therefore the identity is a better hint on coupling Biblical and carbon years than Tas Walker's try at finding a Biblical year for Glacial Maximum by misreading evidence from Job (sorry, Tas, I respect your work in general, but I think your speciality gave you the wrong clue to look for). (On this one).

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Our Lady of Sorrows

Reference to their article:

CMI : Languages of the post-Diluvian World
by Murray R. Adamthwaite, today


* I am not sure if you will ever find Ulimaroa as name for the larger island in Commonwealth of Australia used in English literature, I found it in a Swedish geography book from when Texas was a free state, and Ashanti kingdoms were not yet French colonies, but engaged in slave hunt and human sacrifice.

jeudi 14 septembre 2017

Ubi Crux, et Corona (Genesis 1:28)

Creation vs. Evolution : Ubi Crux, et Corona (Genesis 1:28) · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Why Concerned if Non-Religious Rebel Against Genesis 1:28? (quora)

A Copt (who should have been a Chalcedonian, but wasn't, as far as we can tell), said "where there is a Cross, there is a Crown". An Eastern Rite Marriage ceremony onvolves a Crown for both bride and bridegroom, if virgins up to marriage. So, why not use the day of Exaltation of the Cross to say a word or two of the Nashville Statement.

Nearly all is good, I read the 14 articles of affirmation and denial.

There is a difference in dignity between the sexes, and the part about women having dolourous menses and dolourous childbirth is a fruit of the fall, not of original creation. This the statement missed.

It was also less explicit than I think Chaput was in adressing the possibility of homosexuals marrying, that is of someone or some two, of opposite sex, one or two of whom experience same sex attraction, can marry and have faithful and fertile marriages, as Catholics should.

The new guidelines also address Catholics "who experience same-sex attraction." Chaput says such parishioners can still live out a heterosexual marriage with children, despite that attraction. Others in same-sex relationships should avoid sexual intimacy.

In order to explain this last sentence in the paragraph to some Evangelical readers, living a sinful life means you are not living a Christian life, but does not mean you are not a Christian, it means you are a dead Christian. A divorced and remarried person in a heterosexual couple or two men in couple or two women in couple, all of these lead non-Christian lives. They do not loose membership of the Church, and some who live like heathens die like Christians : the words indicate one of the means of preparing for a late conversion and save one's soul. Obviously, living sinfully in private as well as in public is a thing to avoid, if you hope for a late conversion.

But the other sentence, I miss it in the statement of Nashville. Article 8 says about homosexuals getting saved "as they, like all Christians, walk in purity of life".

Now, this is glossing over what Chaput actually stated: normal marriage is not barred to them.

And, on another article, normal marriage is not a duty to every heterosexual Christian either. St Ignatius of Loyola spent part of his misspent youth doting over a lady beyond his reach, socially, meaning he was heterosexual, if not using it the right way. He became a monk. St Francis after starting the friars experienced a temptation to marry (infidelity to his promises or aspirations to God : on the occasion he made a snow lady and snow children and asked how he should provide for them), and St Thomas Aquinas had to chase out a base woman from the cell where his family tried to dissuade him from life as religious, so that she could not get time to tempt him (after which a prayer was granted and he was never more tempted against purity).

The affirmation of article 2 says "chastity outside of marriage and fidelity within marriage". As this is not God's will for just the married, but for "all people", this is wrong. IN that broad sense it should be "chastity outside of marriage OR fidelity within marriage", or even better "chastity outside of marriage OR fidelity AND FERTILITY within marriage". A man and a woman agreeing to use condoms in marriage commit a sin of sexual immorality one step less bad than two women or two men sharing a bed.

Genesis 1:28. Two men won't make one baby. Two women won't make one baby. Two persons of opposite sex but with a condom will only make one baby if the condom slips or bursts. But God's will for all marriages, except those were as a fruit of Adam's sin, perhaps previous personal sins, one partner is unfruitful without his present fault or her present fault, is to make one baby, two babies, more babies. When one first baby has grown to a teen one should still have also a toddler or a baby too, and some in between too. So, the will for God within marriage is not just fidelity, but fertility, even first.

So, all is not good, I can't sign it, but much is good. The article 2 has a denial which is precisely what Catholics were fighting Luther about, one of the items (Luther denied marriage was a sacrament and considered it a civil contract). Good for Nashville, considering they are Protestants.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Exaltation of the Cross

PS I was going to find the source of the quote on Charles' Chaput's diocesan site or archdiocesan site, but can't, so I link to where I quoted it - I had linked to a newslink, but which seems no longer on the newssite:

New blog on the kid : Philadelphia!

There are two reasons why I post the article here: it involves Genesis 1:28 - and I heard of the Nashville statement from CMI, today's article./HGL

mardi 5 septembre 2017

1:st sept 5509 BC?

Recall Sunday Letters?

Well, I was checking each chronology as per creation of man on Friday March 25th.

With Creation on Sept 1:st, we need to check if the sequence of Sunday letters are correct if Year of Creation is Sunday 1st of September and that in 5509 BC.

So, recall the verse?

Alla de dagar Gud böd eder gå, christeligen fram att dem fullborda?

September 1:st is an F, and this would make 5509 Sunday letter F. The non-extant first days of January 5509 BC would have been:

A Tuesday  E Saturday
B Wednesday  F Sunday
C Thursday  G Monday
D Friday

Why is this important? Well, this means we can translate "Sunday letter F" to "common year starting on Tuesday" and "Sunday letters GF" to "leap year starting on Monday".

This is the format of calendars on wikipedia. 1968 was a leap year starting on Monday. In Gregorian calendar, the periodicity is 400 years for the larger period. Short period mainly 28 (as always in Julian), while the centurial years with no leap years (three out of every four) involve a period of 12 when the years passing between centurial year and the relevant Sunday letter type year are less than 12, like 4 or 8 but 40 when equal to 12.

But as the periodicity of 40 is used only once for 400 years, as far as I could check, this will involve us in some trouble.

1968 AD  7477 AM  277 AM  221 AM
5509  4000  056  209 AM
7477 AM  3477 AM  221 AM  012 !
  2000  040
  1477 AM  181 AM  125 AM
  1200  056  109 AM
  0277 AM  125 AM ! 016 !

We cannot make 2016 a parallel, since 2000 was a leap year. So, how about 1916?

Let's check. It was a : "leap year starting on Saturday of the Gregorian calendar". When was previous such?

"Century leap years are always leap years starting on Saturday and February 29 is always on Tuesday." - So, in 1900!

This would make AM 209, 109, 9 all leap years starting on Saturday.

Er, no. I misunderstood. Century leap years are those in the centuries divisible by 400 - since other centurial years are not leap years!

1900 AD was a common year starting on Monday, and previous leap year starting on Saturday was 1876 - 40 years before 1916.

So, perhaps it is best to simply see whether a leap year starting on Monday will occur as many years before 1968 as Creation year is before 277 AM? That is, 276 years earlier.

1692 leap year starting on Tuesday!

No, if 277 AM was a leap year starting on Monday 1 AM was NOT a leap year starting on Monday, but a leap year starting on Tuesday. For September 1:st to be a Sunday, we need AM 1 to be a (theoretical) leap year starting on Monday (unless it could be as theoretical an ordinary year starting on Tuesday).

I think the Byzantine chronology and understanding of what date the world was created on has a problem if Gregorian calendar is more exact than Julian one in astronomy. Or rather, if the Gregorian calendar is exact.

Back before Pope Gregory XIII, the Gregorian dates are just theoretical, BUT back before Julius Caesar, the Julian dates are just theoretical too. Roman calendar before Caesar was a chaos, basically like recent Hebrew or Attic calendars, but ill entertained, not neatly according to Cycle of Meton.

This means that Gregorian calendar projects back astronomically. Can Byzantines solve this problem, or can I solve it for them? Stay tuned!

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St Lorenzo Giustiniani

PS, had to correct html for first table, excuses to those seeing first version!

samedi 19 août 2017

Defending the Faith and Finding More

That led to a chain reaction of sorts, with him presenting me with one meme or argument against religion after another, most of them very ignorant, some of them even plain silly. The only effect of all this was that I was actually feeling a bit more confident in believing again.

Breaking the shackles of evolutionary propaganda
by Nathan van Ree ; 7 August 2017 (GMT+10)

I have been in similar situations twice before, and am in a probably similar one now.

When I went to boarding school, I was nearly Evangelical in some ways, very much more High Church in others. Young Earth Creationist - and not too anti-Catholic.

At the boarding school I had problems and got more and more problems getting girls. Not that it was a boys' school, far from it, but my tending to romantic love, hoping for a romance with engagement and marrying when possible after both get 18 (yes, back then I fell in love with girls same age, or no more than 5 years difference the one time the difference was biggest - not on school, my first girl friend, I bungled it), that was not quite the policy of a school with official policy no sex or romance and under hand policy "go ahead, but don't get caught" meaning they were presumably using condoms, perhaps abortions. So I was not getting girls.

Nor were most boys very congenial company. One Christian who later fell away, one who went through with Lutheran "confirmation" (Swedish Church can't provide that, since having neither episcopal nor sacerdotal orders) but very soon got disinterested in Christianity, and the rest of co-boarders in each of the two houses where I was were either:

  • harrassers;
  • on and off company, mostly indifferent;
  • company actively trying to bring me away from the faith, though friendly.

The harrassers were also attacking very much the faith, when not attacking my personality by calling me homosexual.

The on and off company was either very superficial, or, at times when a bit more interested also showing off some arguments against the faith. Notably against Young Earth Creationism.

This means I spent four years defending the faith as best as I could. At the end of the process, I was Catholic. OK, not yet received into Novus Ordo sect, but going for it. Or going for the Catholic Church and taking Novus Ordo sect for it.

The thing is, I was doing pretty well - and it was in the process of finding arguments (as well as in my passion for history, including Church history) that I discovered that the Catholic Church NOT being founded on a supposed apostasy or semi-apostasy or syncretisation in the time of Constantine, or even as I had more actually thought, getting slightly corrupted by power and needing a Reformation, but remaining the true faith very purely over time was the best explanation for God meeting His requirement as per Matthew 28 last verses or of God preserving the Bible in a Bible believing Church.

I was looking at the Orthodox Church too, perhaps at the time preferring Catholicism on somewhat too superficial grounds, which has if so been corrected by the time I return (much later) from Orthodoxy to Catholicism.

But while I was preparing to be received - and I was received by a priest who was certainly clearly Catholic in outlook, who had been ordained in older rite, who remembered it all and who accepted externals of the Novus Ordo, not the mentality, of obedience, so one can argue I was really received in the Catholic Church because of my and his intention, and because in 1988 there was no alternative Pope known to me - I was continuing arguing and doing very well.

I was taking time off, more and more, from Young Earth Creationism - after all, I had decided Catholics not believing the position were still Catholics, still perfectly Christians.

Things happened, I could not sort my life out in Catholics of the now mainstream type, I searched out a Traditional opposition, things happened there too, and instead of sorting up my life I got stranded away from them, in a village. There I did not do much for the faith, except pray and oppose abortion. And promote a return to younger marriage ages - by courting a girl who was 14-15. Things happened, and after I had been in mental hospital for two short spells, I defended myself against a policeman when he tried to put me there third time over - NB, not in "defense" of the girl, not on an occasion when I had been trying to see her, but months after the latest such event.

In prison, things happened. I think some of them were arranged, like being put together with one, two, then three or even four Muslims, and I ended up getting defended from them (after saying I believe the Quran is not the word of God, but of Satan) by people then transferring me to mental hospital. NB, the Muslims were threatening a while and it was one of them who alerted the guards, so their game may have been to arrange such a transfer. In that mental hospital, one of my remaining joys was reading. And I read most of Little House series, and I read a Swedish translation of City of God, by St Augustine of Hippo. When I came out, I was very clearly Young Earth Creationist.

I had a reason to start using internet less than a year after getting out, and I was of course defending Catholicism in a Traditional way and Young Earth Creationism. And same thing happened : as I defended the faith, I discovered a new thing about it. I was confronted with Distant Starlight Paradox, and within 24 hours I was Geocentric. I think this position is the best defense, the ones promoted by CMI are comparatively exotic. Less sensible than some of their other work.

And now I am living homeless (hoping to get sth published) defending the faith over internet, and am seeing certain efforts which once again seem to be concerted to bring me away from the faith. Not wishing good luck, though, not even ironically.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibl. Parmentier
St. John Eudes

samedi 5 août 2017

Babylonian Captivity and Carbon Dating

I just saw news archaeologists have found the burning of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar's general, as mentioned in Jeremiah, and dated the burning to 2600 years ago.

2600 years ago is 583 BC, very close to the 586 BC for siege of Jerusalem at first exile.

This means that 2600 years ago, carbon content was c. 100 pmc in the atmosphere./HGL

H/T : Archaeologists Prove Bible Historically Accurate. Again.
on Creative Minority Report

Ussher compared to St Jerome

How Fast was Carbon 14 Forming During Babel Event? · Ussher compared to St Jerome

For the timeline of Ussher, which is per se acceptable to Catholics - it is used in the 1859 Haydock comment and was promoted in France by Frémyot, with approval of the Church - though not as some wikipedians seem to have thought with dogmatic final such, since it is in conflict with that of St Jerome's Christmas proclamation (the traditional one, not the one of 1994), the series of events from Flood to Dispersion of Nations goes roughly like this:

2348 BC - Flood
2247 BC - birth of Peleg
2242 BC - beginning of Babel project
2202 BC - God ends it by confusion of tongues.

Can this timeline work with identifying Babel project with Göbekli Tepe?* We would have the extra years: 2242 BC dated as 9600 BC, 7358 extra years, and 8600 BC standing for 2002 BC, 6398 extra years.

The carbon content of atmosphere at 7358 extra years is roughly 40.92 pmc. 42.04 % for 7162.5 extra years, leaves 195.5. 97.86 % for 154.0625 extra years**, leaves 41.44 extra years, close enough to the 38.52 ones which are 1/128 of a halflife. The remainder is not worth bothering about.*** So I ùultiply 42.04 %, by 97.86 % by 99.45 %, I get 40.92 % as the % of modern carbon, as the pmc.

The rise in carbon to only 6398 extra years is parallele to previous. The difference is not worth bothering about.*** The key difference is whether Peleg was born in 101 or 401 after the Flood. ° That being 2247 BC after a Flood in 2348 BC vs 2556 BC ° after a Flood in 2957 BC, as the Christmas proclamation says.

I have calculated that a rise of "zero" (actually more, but the difference is not worth ... you know ***) to 40.92 pmc (skipping accounting for c. 2 pmc at Flood and its decay***) in 106 years (I used the multiplied percentages for years adding up to 116 years 1/64 + 1/128 of a halflife) is "40.92" pmc; this instead of the replacement expected in 116 years, the 1.62 pmc units which are the difference between normal recent objects and the 98.38 pmc you get in objects from 1901. And 40.92 compared to 1.62 in same time span is 25.2 times as fast. More, since the timespan is really ten years shorter.

I have also calculated the contrasting alternative decay depletion and typical replacement for 406 years, technically just for 385 years, it sinks to 94.73 pmc between 1632 and now (so if you want to carbon date the manuscript of the Galileo trial in 1633, you know what to look for). This means "the atmospheric sample" so to speak normally "needs" (and gets) a replacement of 5.27 pmc units in 385 years, somewhat more in 406 years - which I didn't bother to calculate.*** Divide 40.92 % by 5.27 % and you get 7.75 - a factor of multiplication less important than during the 40 years of building Babel.

So, for St Jerome, you get a cosmic ray impact of 3.02 milliSievert°° per year, lower than the average total background radiation today, for Ussher 9.83 milliSievert per year, closer to highest total background radiations (though not highest professional one).

Supposing that there had been a nuke War just before the Flood, the ground bound parts of background radiation would have been high too. In this scenarion the years between Flood and Babel would have exposed man to quite a few more milliSievert per year than anywhere on earth today - except at work.

That might be either seen as a reason to prefer St Jerome over Ussher - or to reject my Babel-Göbekli Tepe identification °°° - or go a far way to explain shortened lifespans and the fashion of wearing fur in stone age. At least outdoors or outcaves, even if people were buried inside caves with fur on.

Other thing about Ussher's timeline as opposed to St Jerome's, and if accepting my identification of Babel as Göbekli Tepe °°° : how many skeleta from Upper Palaeolithic are there? They would NOT involve Abraham's ancestors, since all of these survived past 106 and even146 post Deluvium. They would have been of people with lifespans fairly short for back then, a bit like in St Louis' time his maternal uncle who was hopping between crenelations and since he was royal no one stopped him, and he fell and broke his neck - at 13. Some were of course older than that, but Cro-Magnon 1, dated to "27 680 ans BP (± 270)" would have been born after Flood and have died before 106 after Flood. Very short lifespan for back then.

Of course, I am personally for the timeline of St Jerome as you know from pervious and elsewhere.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibl. Mouffetard, Paris
Dedication of Our Lady in Snow

PS, one more thing. When you divide times of radioactive decay, the percentages of "needed" replacement increase, exponentially reversed or sth as per number of subdivisions. But the shorter the total time is, the less is this increase, and this seems unrelated to normal versus tripled or sevenfold or elevenfold or twentyfivefold increase. 40 years, as in previous, 116 or 385 years as in this one, this is fairly short in total compared to the 5730 of a whole halflife./HGL

PPS, if you didn't get it, it seems this does not affect the milliSivert count./HGL


* No bricks found as yet, nor any architecture like a tower, which is why a three step rocket or failing attempt of such might have been what the tower was. However, 1/50 has been excavated, the part which resembles stonehenge twice over, or three times over, with surrounding buildings a bit like Çatal Höyük. ** I think that is less than 154 years and one month, let's not bother to check now, but that is exactly 1/32 of a halflife. *** At least not during "vacation", when I prewrite this in the countryside. I might be more meticulous when writing before a computer. ° 101 as per both Vulgate and King James, thus also Ussher, LXX gives 529 if you have a "second Cainan" and therefore 401 without him - it seems St Jerome was using a LXX manuscript without him or discounting him as spurious by comparing Samaritan and his own Hebrew Vorlage, ancestral to Masoretic. But I am guessing, since his Christmas proclamation mentions neither Babel nor Peleg. °° I think I may have misspelled the unit, I just realised Rolf Sievert was a Swede, not a "Rudolf Siewertz" from Germany. Elsewhere, previously. °°° Yes, I know about bricks and tower architecture, but do you find anything older looking like a city anywhere in Shinar plains? Ziggurat of Ur is way later, and its building lord is known as having spoken Sumerian and being third dynasty of an Ur separate from other peoples - two signs it is a man way after Babel.

lundi 31 juillet 2017

How Fast was Carbon 14 Forming During Babel Event?

How Fast was Carbon 14 Forming During Babel Event? · Ussher compared to St Jerome

On my view the traditional 40 years of the Babel event (starting 5 years after birth of Peleg, and ending in Dispersion of Nations 40 years after that) are the 1000 carbon years of Göbekli Tepe.

Suppose St Jerome's standard for post-Flood patriarchs is LXX without the second Cainan, then Peleg was born 401 years after the Flood, i e 2957 BC and 401 years later is 2556 BC. Babel / GT starts getting built 2551 BC, and 2511 Babel / GT is abandoned unfinished because communication problems make continued collaboration meaningless.

Then 2551 BC dates as 9600 BC, 7049 extra years = 42.626 pmc being original level of carbon in the objects at start of GT.

And 2511 BC dates as 8600 BC, 6089 extra years = 47.875 pmc being original level of carbon at end of GT. In the atmosphere and in the objects, of course.

And 40 years decays 100 to 99.517, and therefore replaces 0.483 pmc normally in our times.

If no new carbon had formed, 42.626 pmc would have sunk to 42.42011642 pmc, we'll say "42.42" for short. In order to maintain level, what needed forming was 0.483 pmc - would actually have landed us on 42.9 pmc, a slight rise, the kind of rise envisaged by the Creationists who say that stable level has not yet been reached.

What instead formed was ... 47.875 pmc - "42.42" pmc = "5.455" pmc.

And "5.455" pmc / 0.483 pmc = "11.29". So, carbon was forming 11 times faster then as compared to now.

This would mean that the annual radiation dose from cosmos on atmosphere would have been at ground level "11.29" times larger than the normal dose today, 0.39 milliSieverts per year, thus adding up to "4.4" milliSiverts per year - a little larger part of cosmic radiation than today the total background radiation on average on Earth, but smaller than background radiation in for instance Princeton.

This is clearly feasible. I am not entering too much into causation - magnetic field and solar activity both ultimately obey God - but the radiation dose would not have killed off humanity and mammals.

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Ignatius of Loyola

samedi 29 juillet 2017

One Theory Solving Several Problems

In my young days as a Creationist, and even in my beginning as a Creationist internet writer, I was fine with saying things on the line of:

"Carbon 14 level is perhaps still rising, and the beyond Biblical dates are because the level has to now risen from the level at the real dates, onto which a higher original carbon level is projected, leading to a greater difference between original and inspected levels, leading to longer ages of radioactive decay. This is because the level is a kind of equilibrium between production of new and decay of the sample in the atmosphere."

Two things I have had to modify since studying the matter in mathematical depth, making tentative tables (more than one, not claiming one above the others as the entirely correct one, at least not yet), one is admitting the level is perhaps still rising, if it were we would not be seeing consistent half lives. If a lower level than the stable equilibrium is taken as being so (and the theory I reject says we are still rising to equilibrium, i e are still lower than it) the previous rise being taken as stable and checked against data which are checkable will result in too short a half life and also in a varied half life, not consistent between the centuries.

The level must therefore already have reached equilibrium.

The other thing, not stated but understood in above usual Creationist statement, is that the carbon rise has been due to a production of new carbon 14 not offset by decay only because not yet reaching the equilibrium, i e a production of new carbon due to same level of cosmic radiation, working at same speed.

Take the centuries between Abraham in Genesis 14 and Joseph in Egypt at end of Genesis, then the ones between Joseph and Joshua's taking Jericho.

Now, suppose that Joseph was Imhotep, contemporary with Djoser. This means somewhat shorter extra time than a thousand years (real time for Joseph, c. 1700 BC, dated time for Djoser c. 2600 BC). On the other hand, if Kenyon dated fall of Jericho to 1550 BC and it occurred in 1470 BC, there were only 80 extra years. With this in mind, the rise in carbon must have depended on a formation of new carbon about 6 times faster than now. Suppose the 1700 BC for Joseph corresponds to sth archaeologically far later than Djoser, then there is an even steeper rise in the time between Abraham (if contemporary to Chalcolithic of En-Geddi) and Joseph. Or suppose the dating of Jericho is about the wrong one, it is Garstang's city III which Joshua destroyed, then the rise must be far steeper after Jericho and up to when carbon dates become directly reliable.

So, I have to posit more cosmic radiation for certain parts of this time, especially between Flood and Abraham, and most especially steeper between Flood and Babel than between Babel and Abraham.

  • It will solve the issue at hand, with more cosmic radiation, carbon 14 formed faster.
  • It will provide a solution for how ice age froze so quickly, cosmic radiation freezes the wheather (Little Ice Age seems to have had more cosmic radiation, since calibrations show samples from say 1600 AD show more C14 than normally expected).
  • It will have shortened telomeres in the end portions of chromosomes, shortening the life span, and more so, the longer someone was himself exposed to the radiation before having offspring - this could be the primary mechanism by which God shortened life spans after Flood.
  • But now I found it it solves yet another problem, namely one dating method. Here:

"EPR/ESR also has been used by archaeologists for the dating of teeth. Radiation damage over long periods of time creates free radicals in tooth enamel, which can then be examined by EPR and, after proper calibration, dated. Alternatively, material extracted from the teeth of people during dental procedures can be used to quantify their cumulative exposure to ionizing radiation. People exposed to radiation from the Chernobyl disaster have been examined by this method."

The archaeologists are presuming, wrongly, that exposure to ionizing radiation has been roughly same level - i e mainly the normal background radiation, of which cosmic radiation is just a part.

Well, suppose at times the cosmic radiation was comparable to or greater than other factors of background radiation, this means that the teeth will look older than they really are.

I think this might also take care of higher ages in thermoluminiscence dating:

"Natural crystalline materials contain imperfections: impurity ions, stress dislocations, and other phenomena that disturb the regularity of the electric field that holds the atoms in the crystalline lattice together. These imperfections lead to local humps and dips in the crystalline material's electric potential. Where there is a dip (a so-called "electron trap"), a free electron may be attracted and trapped.

The flux of ionizing radiation—both from cosmic radiation and from natural radioactivity—excites electrons from atoms in the crystal lattice into the conduction band where they can move freely. Most excited electrons will soon recombine with lattice ions, but some will be trapped, storing part of the energy of the radiation in the form of trapped electric charge (Figure 1).

Depending on the depth of the traps (the energy required to free an electron from them) the storage time of trapped electrons will vary as some traps are sufficiently deep to store charge for hundreds of thousands of years."

I think a theory which solves that many problems merits serious consideration.

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Olaf, King and Martyr

PS, I came to think of this à propos the "dark ages" of recovery between Fall of Troy and new beginnings of Archaic Art in Greece, etc along East Mediterranean : there were about 3 centuries, about the time of recovery between Flood and Babel, between Babel and Abraham on my theories./HGL

vendredi 21 juillet 2017

When Are Implicit Citations Licit?

Short answer : when they are explicit.


Fr. David Fleming, O.F.M. (Franciscan, Ordo Fratrum Minorum, Order of Friars Minor) penned a response by the Pontifical Biblical Commission on 13.II.1905, 112 years ago and some months.

Here is my personal translation from Latin of Q and response (not trying to make this an official translation of whole document):

Q (anon.)
Whether in order to untie the difficulties which occur in many texts of Sacred Scripture, which seem to relate historic facts, it is licit for a Catholic exegete to assert it is here question of a tacit or implied citation of a document written down by a non-inspired author, whose every assertion the inspired author does not at all intend to approve or make his own, which therefore cannot be held immune from error?

R (Fr Fleming)
In the negative, except the case in which, saving the sense and judgement of the Church, it be proven with solid arguments:

  • 1° That the Hagiographer (holy author) is really citing the words or documents of someone else;

  • and 2° That he is neither approving them, nor making them his own, so that he can be rightly considered as not speaking in his own name.

What does the phrase "saving the sense and judgement of the Church" mean? It means the proof or supposed such must not contradict the sense of the Church or the judgement of the Church. A judgement can come later, but cannot go against the sense of the Church. The sense of the Church is however already there, it is Tradition. If it is traditional that Moses was not citing some fun but unserious spoof on Canaanean mythology and adding tacitly "take it for what it is worth, it's a joke!" obviously even the Church cannot judge that Moses was doing that, since such a judgement would be going against the sense of the Church. Therefore there can be no solid argument actually proving this was the case to a Catholic exegete, since he must abide by sense and judgement of the Church.

What do "solid arguments" mean?

Some philosopher has "made proofs" by radiometric dating that the account given by Moses cannot stand together with sound reason? No, that is not a solid argument, like it is not a solid argument is some philosopher by Hegelian dialectic has proven God is not personal.

Or, there is a Canaanean text or a Sumerian text, which looks suspiciously like the account of Moses, but which he cannot have approved since it involves idolatry and polytheism? No, that is not a solid argument, like it is not a solid argument to dismiss a canonical Gospel just because it involves some suspicious similarity to a Gnostic one.

Or, we find exactly one Syriac manuscript with a verse inserted between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 stating the following is an opinion? No, it is not a solid argument, that manuscript could be a fake.

So, the one solid argument one could be dealing with is when the "implicit" and "tacit" citation is not so.

Suppose a Catholic exegete has been singing a psalm from a corrupted manuscript, in which the words "the unwise hath said in his heart" are lacking, and been singing the words "there is no God", he would indeed be right to consider King David must have tacitly cited someone else he did not approve of. A very solid argument would be to go out into the wide world and find a lot of editions in which the words "The fool said in his heart:" are not lacking.

Hence my summary of the answer : they are licit to assume when they are explicit.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St. Praxedis, Virgin*

* I take it St Laurence of Brindisi was not today any earlier than under "John XXIII", so is really tomorrow, his heavenly birthday. He is however a saint, canonised by Pope Leo XIII.

jeudi 20 juillet 2017

If Carbon Calculator should shut down, how do we know the percentages vs the years (as portions and multiples of halflife)?

I did a calculation, considering things like 1/8 of a halflife should give a percentage of original quantity corresponding to 8th root of one half. Here is my rough calculation, below is the link I am so often using instead of calculating like this:

And here is the carbon calculator online too: being short link for:

Carbon 14 Dating Calculator

Theoretic Demography Limits

Why did I reduce 58.5 to 29.25 for 30 years, before cubing for 100 years?

Probably because I wanted increase per individual, but if so I should have multiplied with six instead of three.

Either way, if we don't look at typical demographics which are downtoned by marriages becoming economically impossible or people becoming too insignificnat to marry or so, but at physical theoretical limits, we could have had quite a lot of people between Flood and Babel even if it was around 101 after Flood.

In fact even traditional estimates like Josephus Philo Judaeus quoted by Petrus Comestor* saying before Noah died (350 after Flood) there were 24100 men, plus women and children, is far below this extreme actual physical limit./HGL

* My translation is this link, but above links to where quoted in apt portion.

mardi 18 juillet 2017

Excursus on Previous

I forgot to give Biblical dates for Graham Hancock's beginning of Younger Dryas:

My Syncellus table gives for 10800 BC this span:

XIII 2865 BC
33.994 pmc 11 785 BC

Shem +
2858 BC

Peleg *
2829 BC

XIV 2824 BC
44.057 pmc 9600 BC

Interim II and St Jerome A:

iij 2820 BC
33.849 pmc, 8950 years +, 11 770 BC
iu 2751 BC
45.062 pmc, 6600 years +, 9351 BC


III 2778 BC
35.648 % = + 8550 years, 11,328 BC
IV 2688 BC
51.849 % = + 5450 years, 8138 BC

St Jerome B nearly pinpoints the year when Young Dryas began, if correct:

2744 BC
37.548 pmc, + 8100 years, 10844 BC

So, Peleg is born when the earth is divided. Arguably, Younger Dryas did isolate Americas geographically from Old World. If Nimrod was counting on Uranium from the mines at present used in Canada, he could spend all forty years the project according to a tradition actually went on, and still get no Uranium.

In my view, of course, there were minor colonies previous to Göbekli Tepe / Tower of Babel, but one could also consider them as expedition forces. And Younger Dryas cut the Palaeo-Indian ones very effectivly off from Old World, as well as reducing them.

As you may note, the Biblical dates and the carbon 14 level in atmosphere differ. How many extra years an object "had for free" because of lower carbon content, depends on how much the carbon content was. This means that one can play around with different carbon levels for any given carbon dating. Obviously, those who stick to a carbon level of 100 % of the "70 tons" in our atmosphere back anytime after 100,000 BP will consider the carbon date was the real date or close enough, i e 12800 years ago, and I obviously disagree.

Hans Georg Lundahl
ut supra
(vel sicut in bloggo, ut infra)

PS 11600 years ago "and that is the date which Plato gave for the destruction of Atlantis".

Which he had himself received from Egyptian priests, I think via Solon. Satan was well aware of the carbon rise, God had probably allowed him to know what the carbon dates would be and when they would be made, so Satan could adapt the fake Egyptian date for Atlantis falling to the carbon date of end of Younger Dryas./HGL

Is Graham Hancock Right on Göbekli Tepe? Part 4

I thought Younger Dryas was during the Göbekli Tepe period.

9600 BC to 8600 BC, as per carbon dates (which I as you know telescope into Biblical chronology). Here (19:59 in video and some previous) Hancock is saying it was really earlier 10800 BC to 9600 BC as per carbon dates.

That would imply Younger Dryas could have been part of what motivated Babel and also could have reduced many stray populations elsewhere, so that the ones assembling in Shinar could in a sense be considered equivalent of whole mankind.

To those who do not know it, Shinar = Mesopotamia. Not Sumer, even if words are related and Sumer is in Shinar too, but all of Mesopotamia. Everything South of Zagros, at least and perhaps into Zagros where not too folded, if it is between Euphrates and Tigris. And Göbekli Tepe is East of Euphrates and West of Tigris. GT (37°13′23″N) is further south than Keban (38°47′33″N), where Kara Su and Murat Su join for an undisputed length of Euphrates (some would consider Euphrates begins further up, and Murat Su is also Euphrates).

GT is approximately 12 km (7 mi) northeast of the city of Şanlıurfa, approximately 760 m (2,490 ft) above sea level. Şanlıurfa, Urfa or Al-Ruha is is situated on a plain about eighty kilometres east of the Euphrates River. If that plain counts as continuing the plains South of Zagros ... well, then GT is in Shinar.

Back to where we started. Josephus 1:4

1. Now the sons of Noah were three, - Shem, Japhet, and Ham, born one hundred years before the Deluge. These first of all descended from the mountains into the plains, and fixed their habitation there; and persuaded others who were greatly afraid of the lower grounds on account of the flood, and so were very loath to come down from the higher places, to venture to follow their examples. Now the plain in which they first dwelt was called Shinar. God also commanded them to send colonies abroad, for the thorough peopling of the earth, that they might not raise seditions among themselves, but might cultivate a great part of the earth, and enjoy its fruits after a plentiful manner. But they were so ill instructed that they did not obey God; for which reason they fell into calamities, and were made sensible, by experience, of what sin they had been guilty: for when they flourished with a numerous youth, God admonished them again to send out colonies; but they, imagining the prosperity they enjoyed was not derived from the favor of God, but supposing that their own power was the proper cause of the plentiful condition they were in, did not obey him. Nay, they added to this their disobedience to the Divine will, the suspicion that they were therefore ordered to send out separate colonies, that, being divided asunder, they might the more easily be Oppressed.

2. Now it was Nimrod who excited them to such an affront and contempt of God. He was the grandson of Ham, the son of Noah, a bold man, and of great strength of hand. He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power. He also said he would be revenged on God, if he should have a mind to drown the world again; for that he would build a tower too high for the waters to be able to reach! and that he would avenge himself on God for destroying their forefathers !

3. Now the multitude were very ready to follow the determination of Nimrod, and to esteem it a piece of cowardice to submit to God; and they built a tower, neither sparing any pains, nor being in any degree negligent about the work: and, by reason of the multitude of hands employed in it, it grew very high, sooner than any one could expect; but the thickness of it was so great, and it was so strongly built, that thereby its great height seemed, upon the view, to be less than it really was. It was built of burnt brick, cemented together with mortar, made of bitumen, that it might not be liable to admit water. When God saw that they acted so madly, he did not resolve to destroy them utterly, since they were not grown wiser by the destruction of the former sinners; but he caused a tumult among them, by producing in them divers languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion. The Sibyl also makes mention of this tower, and of the confusion of the language, when she says thus: "When all men were of one language, some of them built a high tower, as if they would thereby ascend up to heaven, but the gods sent storms of wind and overthrew the tower, and gave every one his peculiar language; and for this reason it was that the city was called Babylon." But as to the plan of Shinar, in the country of Babylonia, Hestiaeus mentions it, when he says thus: "Such of the priests as were saved, took the sacred vessels of Jupiter Enyalius, and came to Shinar of Babylonia."

Here is Petrus Comestor:

Quare vero primus coeperit dominari ostendit, agens de quodam filio Noe, de quo non egit Moyses, sic dicens: Centesimo anno tertiae chiliadis natus est Noe filius in similitudinem ejus, et dixit eum Jonithum . Trecentesimo anno dedit Noe donationes filio suo Jonitho, et dimisit eum in terram Ethan, et intravit eam Jonithus usque ad mare orientis, quod dicitur Elioschora, id est solis regio, hic accepit a Domino donum sapientiae, et invenit astronomiam.

Ad quem veniens Nemrod, Gigas decem cubitorum, eruditus est ab eo, et accepit ab eo consilium, in quibus locis regnare coepisset. Jonithus iste futuros quosdam eventus praevidit, et maxime de ortu quatuor regnorum, et occasu eorum per successionem. Quam etiam plane prophetavit Daniel. Et praedixit discipulo suo Nemrod, quod primi regnarent de Cham, de quo Belus descendit, post de Sem Medi, et Persae, et Graeci, post, de Japheth Romani. A quo rediens Nemrod accensus amore dominandi, sollicitavit genus suum de Sem, ut imperaret aliis, quasi primogenitus, sed noluerunt; et ideo transivit ad Cham, qui acquievit, et regnavit inter eos in Babylone, et exinde dictus est de filiis Cham.

Sed si vere fuit de filiis Cham, tunc nulla est quaestio quare inter eos regnaverit; hujus exemplo coepit regnare Jectam, vel Jetram, vel Uram super filios Sem, Suphene, vel Sustene super filios Japheth. Narrat autem Philo Judaeus, vel ut alii volunt Gentilis philosophus, in libro Quaestionum super Genesim, quod ex tribus filiis Noe adhuc ipso vivente sunt nati viginti quatuor millia virorum et centum, extra mulieres et parvulos, habentes tres super se duces, quos praediximus.

Post obitum vero Noe, moventes pedes suos ab Oriente, convenerunt duces in unum, in campum Sennaar, et timentes diluvium, consilio Nemrod volentis regnare, coeperunt aedificare turrim, quae pertingeret usque ad coelos, habentes lateres pro saxis, et bitumen pro caemento. Descendit autem Dominus, ut videret turrim (Gen. XI), animadvertit, ut puniret, et ait ad angelos: Venite, et confundamus linguam eorum, ut non intelligat quisque vocem proximi sui. In hac divisione nihil non fecit Deus, quia voces eaedem sunt apud omnes gentes, sed dicendi modos, et formas diversis generibus divisit.

Which I translated as:

But he shows why at first he started to dominate, speaking of a certain son of Noah not mentioned by Moses, saying so: in the hundredth year of the third millennium [after the Flood?] a son was born to Noah in similitude of himself, and he called him Jonithus [Jonathan?] In the threehundredth year Noah gave gifts to his son Jonithus, and sent him into the land Ethann and Jonithus entered into it all the way unto the sea of the East, which is called Helioschora, which is Region of the Sun, he received of the Lord the gift of wisdom and invented astronomy.

To him came Nemrod, a Ten Cubit Giant, was taught by him, and received from him Counsil in which locations he was to start reigning. This Jonithus foresaw some future events, and most of all of the beginning of the four kingdoms and the fall of them in succession. Which succession also Daniel clearly prophesied? And he foretold to his student Nemrod, that the first were to rule of Cham, of whom descends Belus, then of Shem, Medes, Persians, Greeks, then, of Japheth, Romans. From whom Nemrod came back inflamed with love of lording over others, asked for the help of his own of Shem, in order to command others, as he was firstborn, but they would not; and therefore he went over to Cham, who acquiesced, and ruled among them in Babylon, and therefore he is said to be of the sons of Cham.

But if he really was of the sons of Cham, then there is no question at all why it would be among them that he ruled; following his example Jectam, or Jetram, or Uram started to rule over the Sons of Shem, Suphene or Sustene over the Sons if Japheth. But Philo Judaeus tells us, or according to others it is a Pagan Philosopher, in the Book of Questions over Genesis, that of the three sons of Noah, while he was still alive, were born 24100 men, not counting women and as yet small ones, having the three dukes or leaders which we mentioned.

After the Death of Noah, moving their feet from the East, the leaders convened in one place, in the field of Shinear, and fearing [another] Deluge, on the counsel of Nemrod who wanted to rule, started making a Tower, which would reach into the skies, having brick instead of stones and "slime" - asphalt - instead of mortar. But the Lord want down to see the Tower (Genesis XI), took heed to punish and told the angels: come let us confound their tongue, so that each one may not understand the speach of his neighbour. In this divison all was done by God, since the speach is the same in all nations, but the ways of saying things and the forms He divided in diverse kinds.

Now, let's reason a bit about this. Ethann, Helioschora ... could it be Gunung Padang?

  • 1) It is clearly further East than Göbekli Tepe;
  • 2) If Younger Dryas involved some gigantic Floods (though inferior to Flood of Noah), this would explain the shyness of getting onto a plain (and would explain a preference for a plain where it is fairly high, like GT, now 760 meters above sea level, over a lower plain, like 34 m (100 feet) above present sea level;
  • 3) Gunung Padang flourished (or started to get built) 20 000 BP, 18 000 BC, carbon dates, if Hancock is right about drill holes. This would be before Younger Dryas - and Younger Dryas is very evocative of "But they were so ill instructed that they did not obey God; for which reason they fell into calamities, and were made sensible, by experience, of what sin they had been guilty:"

On the other hand, we have:

"for when they flourished with a numerous youth, God admonished them again to send out colonies; but they, imagining the prosperity they enjoyed was not derived from the favor of God, but supposing that their own power was the proper cause of the plentiful condition they were in, did not obey him. Nay, they added to this their disobedience to the Divine will, the suspicion that they were therefore ordered to send out separate colonies, that, being divided asunder, they might the more easily be Oppressed."

However, this is contradicted by the information from perhaps Philo, perhaps someone else, in Petrus Comestor, of a land governed by Jonithus (I wonder if it is a corruption of Jonathan, because Jonathas is a correct form of Jonathan in nominative, and Jonithus could involve phonetic corruption of mid a to i, Jonithas, and scribal error of -us for -as).

The refusal to send out colonies did not necessarily mean none existed, and it could have been less absolute than tradition recalled.

We also have Josephus describing a pyramid (so broad it looked less high than it was) and this contradicts the known facts of Göbekli Tepe - but could be due to a confusion between GT and Gunung Padang.

So, I am eagerly awaiting, will Graham Hancock say sth about people fleeing Indonesia getting to Göbekli Tepe with agriculture and know-how? We'll see.

We also have lack of bricks and bitumen used as mortar - but Gunung Padang is nearly not excavated at all, and GT is excavated to about 1/50 of total extent.

Genesis 11:4 And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it.

Here I must also caution against a mistake I made earlier, saying the rocket was not being built for launching, but only planned. Presuming a three step rocket could be described as a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven, it must have been ready for arrival of uranium (if my reconstruction is right), because the tower (rocket?) was already to be seen:

Verse 5 : And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of Adam were building.

That said, I'll here resume listening. Meanwhile, take a look at this:

"He persuaded them not to ascribe it to God, as if it was through his means they were happy, but to believe that it was their own courage which procured that happiness. He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power."

An accurate description of socialism, in its initial ideals and its realisation, isn't it? Eerily accurate!

Hans Georg Lundahl
St Symphorosa and her seven sons*
Martyrs of Tivoli

* Tibure sanctae Symphorosae, uxoris sancti Getulii Martyris, cum septem filiis suis, scilicet Crescente, Juliano, Nemesio, Primitivo, Justino, Stacteo et Eugenio. Horum mater, sub Hadriano Principe, ob insuperabilem constantiam, primo caesa diu palmis, deinde crinibus suspensa, novissime saxo alligata, in flumen praecipitata est; filii autem, stipitibus ad trochleas extensi, diverso mortis exitu martyrium compleverunt. Eorumdem corpora postea Romam translata, et, Pio Quarto Summo Pontifice, in Diaconia sancti Angeli in Piscina fuerunt inventa.

lundi 17 juillet 2017

Is Graham Hancock Right on Göbekli Tepe? Part 3

At 15:21, Graham Hancock has just said that archaeology is a very imprecise science, archaeologists are interpreting the data according to their philosophy, cited a man who says archaeology doesn't qualify as a science.

"Archaeology is misleading the public"

Well, there is more than one creationist who would agree on that point!

Too bad GH is not including carbon dating as one of the things subject to interpretation, since the datings are built on cosmic radiation having kept carbon 14 at a constant amount of 70 tons in the atmosphere (or else, that wiki was ... well no, it is still there):

Cosmic rays kept the level of carbon-14[73] in the atmosphere roughly constant (70 tons) for at least the past 100,000 years, until the beginning of above-ground nuclear weapons testing in the early 1950s. This is an important fact used in radiocarbon dating used in archaeology.

The reference is:

Trumbore, Susan (2000). Noller, J. S.; J. M. Sowers; W. R. Lettis, eds. Quaternary Geochronology: Methods and Applications. Washington, D.C.: American Geophysical Union. pp. 41–59. ISBN 0-87590-950-7.

"The tendency is to reject the new facts because they don't fit in with the theory - and that is the opposite of [good science.]"

I think I can see some relevance to such a remark ... Hancock also speaks of a knowleddge filter, attributing the term to Michael Kremer*, Forbidden Archaeology. Some things are so out of the way compared to current theories that ...

"It never reaches the public."

And in conclusion:

"It takes someone who is marginal to the field, to bring that information."

Because those who are way inside it, are tied up with the pre-fabricated theorems, the theories already known, and being falsified.

I am NOT sure this is correct, it looks like a generalisation on history of sciences.

I think however it could be sth which is more and more like truth these days.

Hans Georg Lundahl
ut supra (vel ut infra)

* Correction : Michael Cremo.

Is Graham Hancock Right on Göbekli Tepe? Part 2

From same video as previous:

"At exactly the moment when Göbekli Tepe is created, we get the sudden spread of agriculture in the same region, a region which had not known agriculture before, where people were hunters and gatherers : suddenly they know how to do agriculture."

With conventional carbon dates reaching back to 40 000 BP for arrival of Homo Sapiens (often considered as distinct from Neanderthal in species) North of Mediterranean, and other methods adding millions, also without agriculture, we get the kind of mystery Graham Hancock reacts to.

Hunting and gathering could have been a very good livelyhood with no incentive at all to invent sth better.

Or man could have been incapable of inventing it in his own, having lived most of its time without it. Giving us conclusions like what I think Hancock's are, from title of video : Atlanteans or extraterrestrials arrived.

Or man was simply after some centuries of experimentation recovering agriculture after the Flood. But this is only possible if carbon content was rising so steeply in atmosphere, that a few centuries look like tens of thousands of years in carbon dates.

Maybe even before this, since the scarce centuries could involve the chance of wheat growing but not getting preserved to us before Babel / Göbekli Tepe project.

I read of a wheat ear found dated 20 000 BP in Holy Land. That would be a century or two or three earlier in Biblical chronology, which is the true one. CMI mentioned starch found on clubs of cave men - meaning they did have wheat.* And someone who believes evolution thinks millet comes from a Chinese wild grass cultivated way earlier.**

So, Hancock is wrong on start of agriculture and how long man was without it before that. So is every evolutionist.

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Alexius of Rome

PS "they must have been a specially inspired group of hunter gatherers" ... GH resuming archaeologists of similar evolutionist persuasions. Obviously, if the real beginning was before the Flood, and the tens of thousands of years were just some post-Flood centuries, the matter is in another light./HGL


* ‘Stone Age’ flour demolishes another evolutionary preconception
by David Catchpoole, Published: 4 November 2010 (GMT+10)

** Could not find reference, found this instead:

This is however only about the time of Göbekli Tepe or just after, I had read another one, in which this was earlier, if I recall correctly.

Update: found reference:

New Scientist : Farming has deep roots in Chinese ice age
By Colin Barras, 18 March 2013

vendredi 14 juillet 2017

Is Graham Hancock Right on Göbekli Tepe?

I am listening to him right now.*

"6000 years older than any other known megalithic structure"

Well, these reduce pretty nicely in my carbon tables.

Continuing Interim III to Joseph in Egypt (Syncellus)

Peleg *
2829 BC

XIV 2824 BC
44.057 pmc 9600 BC

Arphaxad +
2791 BC

XV 2780 BC
49.459 pmc 8600 BC

Cainan +
2763 BC


XXX 2170 BC
86.955 pmc : 3325 BC

Terah +
2153 BC

XXXI 2131 BC
87.34 pmc : 3250 BC

9600 BC - 3250 BC = real time 2824 BC to 2131 BC.

Interim II St Jerome A / St Jerome Fibonacci

iu 2751 BC
45.062 pmc, 6600 years +, 9351 BC


xuij / XIII 1883 BC
84.35 %, + 1400 years, 3283 BC

9351 BC - 3283 BC reduces to real time 2751 BC to 1883 BC

Flood to Abraham, St Jerome B

2637 BC
43.262 pmc, + 6950 years, 9587 BC


2424 BC
47.374 pmc, + 6200 years, 8624 BC


1928 BC
83.689 pmc, + 1450 years, 3378 BC

9587 BC - 3378 BC = real time 2637 BC - 1928 BC

Seven centuries minus seven years for the sixthousand years he thinks of. Or a bit more according to St Jerome B. Or even 868 according to St Jerome A.

"It just suddenly appears in the human record"

For evolutionists, yes.

For Christians, 2824 BC (Syncellus beginning of Babel = in my view of GT) was 534 years after a Flood**, which indeed wiped off the Nodian civilisation, but not all the knowledge which had built it. Ham's wife Noema was sister of Tubal-Cain and half sister of Jabal and Jubal. I presume that Japheth's wife was part Neanderthal and knew how to survive as hunter gatherer, as long as Noema's knowhow remained unused due to lack of good materials and sufficient labour force.

"dated firmly and without any question to 11600 years ago"

That is without reckoning with the reduction one can make with a theory of carbon rise, obviously.

"They went to enormous effords" ... to deliberately bury Göbekli Tepe.

Here he is right. And this does fit in with Genesis 11:[8] And so the Lord scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city.

When they covered it, they ceased to build there. And if any faction or factions regained some territorial control over the Eastern part of Anatolia or the NorthWest of Shinar, they had a motive to hide the monument to their disaster. To their momumental failure. One day they were all speaking Hebrew (some few men outside, either on expeditions, like Palaeo-Indians, or shirking, i e the Hebrew tribe), next day they could not speak to each other. Everything broke down. They were ready to scatter on more local business, like the Disciples going off to fish after what they thought was the end. Someone had an interest to hide this. For in Babel, this was the end, there was no resurrection of their one world project.

Now I'll post it in a coment, before hearing more.

Hans Georg Lundahl
St. Bonaventura


* Ancient Extinction Revealed: Atlantis, Göbekli Tepe & Mysteries of the Gods with Graham Hancock

** St Jerome A has GT somewhere between 2751 BC and a little before and 2683 BC, 206 to well before 274 after Flood, St Jerome B between 320 and 533 after Flood - longer than the 40 years that a certain tradition considers the building took, before God interrupted it.