A Catholic Creationist Cannot be Compared to a Catholic Doing Glossolalia

Just in Case ANYONE Confuses Young Earth Creationism with Megachurches · Or with JW's · A Catholic Creationist Cannot be Compared to a Catholic Doing Glossolalia · A Reflection on Glossolalia

I just heard a guest on EWTN say that the post-Vatican II movement within Catholicism which encourages or prescribes glossolalia (in the sense of unintelligible words) was directly inspired by Protestant writers (like, obviously those connected to Asuza Street).

But whatever a Catholic Young Earth Creationist can learn from Protestants on purely technical issues, the issue of accepting the Biblical timeline, and of extending it substantially neither at Genesis 1:2 by Gap Theory, nor by extending the ensuing Days into long period by Day Age Theory, is in fact one of the schools that was around in Catholicism, prior to many of these Protestant writers.

Henry Morris and John Whitcombe The Genesis Flood only came after a list that I gave more in detail in French*, these being:

C. F. Keil, Biblischer Commentar über die Bücher Mose's, Leipzig, 1866; P. Laurent, Études géologiques, philosophiques et scripturales sur la cosmogonie de Moïse, Paris, 1863; A. Saignet, La cosmologie de la Bible, Paris, 1854; J. E. Veith, Die Anfänge der Menschenwelt, Vienna, 1865; A. Bosizio, Das Hexaemeron und die Geologie, Mainz, 1864 and Die Geologie und die Sündfluth, Mainz, 1877; V. M. Gatti, Institutiones apologeticae-polemicae, 1867; A. Trissl, Sündfluth oder Gletscher ; Das Biblische Sechstagewerk 2nd edit., Munich, Ratisbonn, 1894; and finally G. J. Burg, Biblische Chronologie, Trier, 1894

And obviously, before the technical issues leading back in the 19th and early 20th CC some to Gap Theory, some to Day Age, and allowing some to remain "Literalist" the previous position was, all along Church Fathers and Scholastics, literalist.

Do not be misled by some mention of "allegorical interpretation" this meaning, not another view on what really happened in the Genesis history itself, but instead a view on how Genesis history prophetically forebodes New Testament truths, about Christ, about the Blessed Virgin, about the Church, about the Antichrist and the False Prophet and so on. And similarily for Exodus and the rest of the Books of Moses and similarily for Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two books of Paralipomena and so on.

So, the view of what happened within Genesis or within Joshua or withing the history of King David, all of that was strictly literalistic. Allegory is a sense added to and not alternative to the historic literal sense, and this is so because allegory is aboubt the relation of history to what was to come.

So, no, a Catholic Young Earth Creationist (or generally literalist) cannot be compared, even if he does consult Protestant writers, with the specific Charismatics who ended up demanding glossolalia.

Meanwhile, Catholic Evolutionists are getting technical solutions and arguments from "scientists" who are often enough also Atheists, therefore worse than Protestants in doctrine.

Next question?

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Samson of Brittany
28.VII.2022

In Britannia minore sancti Sampsonis, Episcopi et Confessoris.

* This post: Φιλολoγικά / Philologica : Les Prédécesseurs catholiques de Henry Morris (jusqu'à 1920)
https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2019/11/les-predecesseurs-catholiques-de-henry.html

Or with JW's

Just in Case ANYONE Confuses Young Earth Creationism with Megachurches · Or with JW's · A Catholic Creationist Cannot be Compared to a Catholic Doing Glossolalia · A Reflection on Glossolalia

Here is Awake! No. 3 2021 | Should You Believe in a Creator?—You Decide
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/awake-no3-2021-nov-dec/

And here is the article:

What the Bible Tells Us
https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/awake-no3-2021-nov-dec/what-the-bible-tells-us-about-creator/

And here is a quote:

The Bible does not say that all life on earth was created in six 24-hour days. Rather, it uses the word “day” to refer to periods of time. For example, it states that the creation of our planet and life on it—during the six creative “days” spoken of in Genesis chapter 1—occurred in the period of time called “the day that Jehovah * God made earth and heaven.” (Genesis 2:4) So each of the six creative “days” during which God prepared the earth for life and created life on it could represent extremely long periods of time.

In other words, the JW's are either Day-Age or at least want to keep the door open to that.

Just like Fr. Fulcran Vigouroux, a Sulpician priest from Paris, was Day-Age and as a kind of judge in the Biblical Commission of Pope St. Pius X kept the door open to Day-Age.

So, by being Young Earth Creationist, I am not using the leeway Fr. Fulcran wanted to give me, but I am most definitely not a dupe of the JW's.

Some people who are more into the details of what scientists say than they are and who even so want to use that leeway, might end up agreeing far less with Fr. Fulcran than they do.

He did after all, in his intro to the OT (a few decades before he issued the judgement) consider that the six age long days ended with the creation of Adam and that since then the Biblical chronology according to the LXX is correct. By contrast, some Trads or at least Sedes here in Paris see no problem in promoting a book in which the "Indo-European Race" was derived from men clustering far North during the Güntz glaciation.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Anne, Grandmother of God
26.VII.2022

Just in Case ANYONE Confuses Young Earth Creationism with Megachurches

Just in Case ANYONE Confuses Young Earth Creationism with Megachurches · Or with JW's · A Catholic Creationist Cannot be Compared to a Catholic Doing Glossolalia · A Reflection on Glossolalia

While the Ark Encounter is a thing with Young Earth Creationism, it is not a Church, per se. It's a kind of museum.

Famous Birthdays : Ken Ham
https://allfamousbirthday.com/ken-ham/

According to our analysis, Wikipedia, Forbes & Business Insider, Ken Ham net worth is approximately $1.5 Million.

Let's compare this to:

According to our analysis, Wikipedia, Forbes & Business Insider, Kenneth Copeland net worth is approximately $300 Million.

Famous Birthdays : Kenneth Copeland
https://allfamousbirthday.com/kenneth-copeland/

Kenneth Copeland is not running a museum. He actually is running a megachurch. He is 200 times richer than Ken Ham is.

Now, Ken Ham is known to be a Young Earth Creationist. Is Kenneth Copeland?

No:

The Pre-Adamic Civilization
8th Nov. 2015 | Kenneth Copeland Ministries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_EAhC4Z-wQ

Kenneth Copeland's wife is entertaining another lady and both are disdainful about what Ken Ham would have to say.

Stop mixing apples and oranges, please!/HGL

PS, the lady, Billye Brim, is claiming Jeremiah 4:23 - 27 as proof text. It would appear that the real meaning is God comparing what He's doing with Israel to the Flood, here is the Haydock comment to some of these verses:

Ver. 23. Void. Heb. "Thohu and bohu," like chaos. Gen. i. 2. H.
Ver. 25. Gone. Beasts feel the wrath of God, and in a land uninhabited; not even birds will remain. Osee iv. 3. S. Jer.
Ver. 26. Carmel: the beautiful country of Palestine, (H.) Jerusalem, (Theod.) or the mountain so called.
Ver. 27. Destroy, when Jechonias was led captive. God allowed the people still eleven years to repent; and he afterwards restored the Jews. C. --- He will never suffer his church to perish. W.


H = Haydock
Theod. = Theodoretus?
C = Challoner
W = Witham

PPS - the earthquakes and fault lines are from the Flood. Obviously./HGL

PPPS - "the world that then was" also refers to what was before the Flood, not before Genesis 1:2./HGL

Creswell Crag and Bolsover

Want to Live Close to Giant Dragonflies? Nah, Me Neither · Acknowledgement to Jerome Cohen for Previous · Creswell Crag and Bolsover

Here the distance is notably smaller.

It is five minutes by bus or taxi.

And there is some indication that Neandethals could be involved.

Now, what are the carbon dates?

In fact, I don't know in advance that all of these dates are carbon:

Creswell Crags is an enclosed limestone gorge on the border between Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire, England, near the villages of Creswell and Whitwell. The cliffs in the ravine contain several caves that were occupied during the last ice age, between around 43,000 and 10,000 years ago. Its caves contain the northernmost cave art in Europe. The evidence of occupation found in the rich series of sediments that accumulated over many thousands of years is regarded as internationally unique in demonstrating how prehistoric people managed to live at the extreme northernmost limits of their territory during the Late Pleistocene period.[1]

The caves contain occupation layers with evidence of flint tools from the Mousterian, proto-Solutrean, Creswellian and Maglemosian cultures. They were seasonally occupied by nomadic groups of people during the Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic periods. Evidence of Neolithic, Bronze Age, Roman and post-medieval activity has also been found there. There is evidence of Neanderthal occupation 50,000–60,000 years ago, a brief Gravettian occupation around 32,000 years ago and use of all the main caves during the Magdalenian around 14,000 years ago.[2] The site is open to the public and has a visitor centre with a small museum of objects associated with the caves, including a stuffed cave hyena.

From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creswell_Crags

Now, what are the footnotes?

(1) UNESCO : Creswell Crags
https://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5671/

And what does it say?

Uniquely, against this environmental back-drop, the gorge and the caves attracted three phases of habitation by small bands of hunter-gatherers, adapted to northern ice age climates, seasonally exploiting their northern hunting territories. The main phases of hominin occupation are:

(i) Neanderthal occupation (60,000 – 40,000 years ago) evidenced through stone tools.
(ii) Modern Human (Gravettian) hunter gatherers (28,000 years ago).
(iii) Late Magdalenian hunters (14-15,000 years ago) who re-colonised the UK after the intense cold of the last glacial period, providing rich archaeological evidence at the edge of human occupation in north west Europe, including the only early rock art in the UK.

Aha? Again, as in Grotte de Fées, the potentially pre-Flood since Neanderthal occupation is evidenced only by tools. UNESCO said, probably with some pertience : "evidenced through stone tools."

If there are carbon dates, they would involve charcoals or tool shafts, not human body parts.

So, again, the Meganeura is pre-Flood, the nearest human habitation clearly need not be so.

Just for completion, if the other stages are in fact carbon dated this would be when? 26 000 BC and 13 000 / 12 000 BC correspond to what real dates?

Gravettian

between:

2935 BC

3.9541 pmC, so dated as 29 635 BC

2912 B. Chr.

6.6161 pmC, so dated as 25 362 BC

Magdalenian

between:

2733 BC

27.679 pmC, so dated as 13 333 BC

...

2688 BC

32.8739 pmC, so dated as 11 888 BC

Creation vs. Evolution : New Tables
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html

The Gravettian visit would be a bit before 2912 BC, and the Magdalenian between 2733 and 2688. All within Noah's remaining lifetime after the Flood. But let's not forget footnote two:

(2) Palaeolithic art and archaeology of Creswell Crags, UK". Durham University. Retrieved 22 August 2013. The dates given in the source are 28,000 14C years ago for the Gravettian and 12,500 to 12,200 14C years ago for the Magdalenian. The 14C years have been adjusted to give calendar ('real') years. "The Radiocarbon age scale vs the 'real' (calibrated) years age scale". Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Retrieved 30 January 2013.

It would nearly seem we have a confirmation, that the Neanderthal tools are not involving any carbon date, and this means, pre-Flood human habitation near Meganeura is a non-problem for Creswell Crags. If the date 43 000 BP were however a carbon date, one could put it down to the reservoir effect since the limestone would give some carbon through the water a pre-Flood pmC.

Another thing is, the Late Magdalenian occupation can be narrowed down even further:

2711 BC

30.2799 pmC, so dated as 12 611 BC

2688 BC

32.8739 pmC, so dated as 11 888 BC

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Liborius of Le Mans
23.VII.2022

Cenomanis, in Gallia, sancti Liborii, Episcopi et Confessoris.

Acknowledgement to Jerome Cohen for Previous

Want to Live Close to Giant Dragonflies? Nah, Me Neither · Acknowledgement to Jerome Cohen for Previous · Creswell Crag and Bolsover

Here is the answer he gave on French Quora as to Commentry in Alliers:

À quelle distance vivaient les hommes préhistoriques les plus proches à Commentry, Alliers ?
https://fr.quora.com/%C3%80-quelle-distance-vivaient-les-hommes-pr%C3%A9historiques-les-plus-proches-%C3%A0-Commentry-Alliers/answer/Jerome-Cohen-6

And to make that answer, he looked up a site for Alliers Pre-History, and than presumably calculated one by one what the distance was between diverse prehistoric human remains or traces and came up with Grotte des Fées as, with 86 km distance, the closest one.

By the way, 86 km = 53 miles 771 yards.

Just mentioning for those not really familiar with the metre system.

So, he might have felt somewhat irritated when I asked him follow up questions which I could have found from the site anyway.

Nevertheless, he did give an answer. And as we saw, it really helped.

I wonder if I can do as well with the other site for Meganeura. In England. We'll see.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Apollinaris of Ravenna
23.VII.2022

Ravennae natalis sancti Apollinaris Episcopi, qui, ab Apostolo Petro Romae ordinatus et Ravennam missus, pro fide Christi diversas et multiplices poenas perpessus est; postea, Evangelium in Aemilia praedicans, plurimos ab idolorum cultu revocavit; tandem, Ravennam reversus, gloriosum martyrium, sub Vespasiano Caesare, complevit.

Want to Live Close to Giant Dragonflies? Nah, Me Neither

Want to Live Close to Giant Dragonflies? Nah, Me Neither · Acknowledgement to Jerome Cohen for Previous · Creswell Crag and Bolsover

So, there were Giant Dragonflies technically known as Meganeura.*

Fossils of Meganeura were first discovered in Late Carboniferous (Stephanian) Coal Measures of Commentry, France in 1880. In 1885, French paleontologist Charles Brongniart described and named the fossil "Meganeura" (large-nerved), which refers to the network of veins on the insect's wings. Another fine fossil specimen was found in 1979 at Bolsover in Derbyshire. The holotype is housed in the National Museum of Natural History, in Paris. Despite being the iconic "giant dragonfly", fossils of Meganeura are poorly preserved in comparison to other meganeurids.

Young Earth Creationism doesn't make predictions ... oh yes, I do.

The Meganeura was arguably pre-Flood. That would be one kind of aberration that God would want to wipe out.

So, pre-Flood men would probably not be living too close to the Coal Measures of Commentry or to the specimen from Bolsover.

Now, I did check. It seems the closest pre-historic human habitation (or comparable) to the Coal Measures of Commentry would be, at a distance of 86 km, the Grotte des Fées at Châtelperron.

And the thing is, for one, the date of 35000 BC is what I would count as a post-Flood age, if carbon dates, for another, I couldn't find out it was carbon dated, for a third, it could arguably have been classified as Neanderthal site because of the tools.

Alternative hypothesis to Neanderthals (which I consider pre-Flood) is, some post-Flood people were doing Neanderthal style tools or disposing of tools made before the Flood by Neanderthals. According to my calculations, if 35 000 Bc were a carbon date (like of a twig or animal of prey), this would be some ten years after the Flood.

2957 B. Chr.**

0.012788 pmC/100, so dated as 38 957 B. Chr.

2935 B. Chr.

0.039541 pmC/100, so dated as 29 635 B. Chr.

or

2957 BC

1.2788 pmC, so dated as 38 957 BC

2935 BC

3.9541 pmC, so dated as 29 635 BC

My own new tables of course basically gives a few carbon millennia as the decades after the Flood in which we don't expect to see any grown dead people./HGL

* Citing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meganeura
** Citing:
Creation vs. Evolution : New Tables
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html

We're Into Section 6!

Second Round essays: Henke Can't Read · Henke Can't Argue Philosophy Very Well Either · Henke Still Can't Read - Or Hasn't Done so To Lewis · To Reaffirm "Earliest Known Audience" · The Philosophy of History of Henke : Given without References, Refuted without References · He Applies It · (Excursus on William Tell and Catholic Saints) · Continuing on Section 5 · We're Into Section 6!

Henke continues to make little use of precise formulations by me ...

As mentioned in Henke (2022a), Alexander the Great had numerous silver coins minted in his name during his lifetime. Lundahl (2022g) makes the following responses to Henke (2022a) and the coins:

“I would need to acknowledge that someone or something at the time of the coining referred to as Alexander existed.

That this entity disposed of a mint in Macedonia - and elsewhere in the budding Hellenistic world.”

While Lundahl (2022c) blindly accepts that Genesis 3 is history and without a shred of evidence believes the old story that Moses wrote it, Lundahl (2022g) thinks that the individual that ordered the minting of these coins and the humans that did it were only “someone or something.”

It was someone or something referred to as Alexander. Without the texts, this need not mean the Alexander who was born to the Kingdom of Macedon and who Conquered the Empire of Persia.

It could be a man, it could be a fake deity, it could be a club, it could be an insurance company (Alex-ander means man-protector) ... For Moses being the author of Genesis, I have the earliest known assessment of the authorship of Genesis. That's not without a shred of evidence.

Now, I have similar evidence, the kind that Henke disparages, for the Alexander coins being coined in honour of and perhaps also on the orders of the Alexander who was born to the Kingdom of Macedon and who Conquered the Empire of Persia. I am however considering what the coins would tell us without such texts, and the answer is "someone or something at the time of the coining referred to as Alexander existed."

How could a “something” order the minting of coins and then carry out that order?

A club could have a chairman, and a deity could have a temple and a priest.

How could “someone or something at the time of the coining referred to as Alexander” afford to mint all of those coins, have the power to do it, and have so much influence that those coins would be widely used from India to Greece and Egypt if he wasn’t a powerful and wealthy leader?

It could have been a kind of common currency, by mutual agreement. Like the Euro currency. As you may know, neither Napoleon, nor Hitler introduced this, the politicians who did may have been more humane, but they were also, very certainly, more humdrum, and individually less powerful.

Again, all of the archeological evidence must be examined together – the Alexandros coins, the Egyptian temple inscriptions, the Bactrian documents, etc. – and not just the five ancient histories to confirm the existence of Alexander the Great.

Why? First, we did know the carreere of Alexander by the authors before the archaeological evidence, and second, the archaeological evidence is certainly compatible with it but cannot give the details thereof.

While I see no historical value whatsoever in Genesis 3, I do not dismiss these five ancient histories of Alexander the Great as worthless. They are very valuable when their individual claims are confirmed by archeological data. Once specific events in these histories are confirmed, then the information in the histories may carefully provide additional details and possibly answer questions raised by the archeological data. The written histories and the archeological data must complement each other – in isolation they are inadequate to truly provide the best information on who Alexander the Great really was.

The problem is:

• who Alexander was, is only given in the texts
• and the texts are not contemporary and not independent but from within the Hellenistic cultural sphere, which looked back on Alexander as its founder, and this is the type of evidence we have for the Bible stories (when foundational).

When looking at the archeological evidence in total, Mr. Lundahl also needs to ask himself why a Greek name (Alexandros) was inscribed numerous times in temples in Egypt, mentioned as a king in bureaucratic documents from central Asia, his military exploits discussed in Babylonian tablets and his name on countless coins spread throughout the region. Even without the five ancient histories, it’s obvious that there was a king named Alexander living in the 4th century BC that had a lot of wealth and power that extended from Greece and Egypt into Central Asia as demonstrated in Henke (2022a).

I was suspecting that Henke was pushing the goal posts, but his initial statement was also this cautious:

My proposal or hypothesis for testing the existence of Alexander the Great is very conservative. I simply propose that Alexander the Great was:

1. a human being that lived in the 4th century BC and not a mythical or fictional being.

2. he was a military leader that had an extraordinary political effect over a wide region of at least the Middle East.

Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : Kevin R. Henke's Essay: Alexander the Great (356-323 BC) and the Talking Snake of Genesis 3: History? https://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2022/03/kevin-r-henkes-essay-alexander-great.html

I submit we know more than this, namely his father united Greece under Macedon, and he took over the united forces of the Persian Empire. And this we know only through some texts, the oldest of which is I Maccabees. And the historicity of the texts, while partially confirmed by archaeology (not in the carreere moves I just referred to) is at its most basic historicity rather than fictionality on the basis of the earliest known audience and its assessment of them.

The people in Egypt were simply not going to allow just any individual to walk into their temples and inscribe his name and image on at least 22 places (Bosche-Puche and Moje 2015).

The Egyptian temples are perfectly compatible with there being a pagan deity (which Alexander was too).

No one would put the name Alexandros on countless coins from India to the Mediterranean unless a powerful leader paid for it and had the power to enforce the order.

A single paymaster is, as per Euro coins, not necessary.

Meanwhile, Mr. Lundahl can’t find a shred of evidence to support his belief in a Talking Snake and Moses.

Talking Snake : in historicity of text. Historicity of text : in assessment of earliest known audience. Mosaic authorship : in assessment of earliest known audience. Precisely as with five texts, and before these the First Maccabees, speaking of Alexander as a Greek who conquered Persia with Egypt, Syria and Babylon.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
IV Lord's Day after Pentecost
3.VII.2022