jeudi 17 décembre 2015

Dave Armstrong, Creationist*, says Creationists must not be divisive

Dave Armstrong, Creationist*, says Creationists must not be divisive · Answering Armstrong on Vast Majority of Experts Argument and Flood Geology · I am Not Generally Against Armstrong

This is an answer to what he wrote earlier, when he self identified as Creationist*, and has reposted. Now he is undecided.*

Dave Armstrongs syllabus #40
40. That to believe in the theory of evolution is to become – ipso facto – a modernist.

Dave Armstrong
Pope Pius XII (a modernist?) in his Encyclical Humani Generis (12 August 1950) spoke directly to this issue. First of all (I note in passing), he writes concerning the authority of encyclicals (which RadCathRs seem to have forgotten when it comes to Pope John Paul II):

Hans Georg Lundahl
What if Pius XII was indeed a modernist?

Also, he did NOT speak directly to the issue of actually BELIEVING Evolution. Rather, he walked about the question as a cat around hot porridge. He only made it clear that he was not canonically opposing something which falls short of opposing a canonical ban on Evolution which he NEITHER dared to pronounce NOR to deny.

It had been given by the Council of Trent.

New blog on the kid : Grammatica et Logica de Canone Celeberrimo Concilii Tridentini

Had he said directly, in so many words "go on, believe evolution even if it flies in the face both of Bible and how Church Fathers have exposed it over first millennium and scholastics and theologians over second millennium" - he would very clearly have excommunicated himself according to a very well known canon by Trent.

Humani Generis
20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent,

Hans Georg Lundahl
Note : expounded, not just left to the imagination.

Humani Generis
since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”;[3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Generally, not necessarily, this once?

Humani Generis
But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians.

Hans Georg Lundahl
But perhaps to discussion among non-Theologians. Seriously, he is speaking about a matter UP TO that time in dispute, like at a certain moment the question of the Blessed Virgin Mary's freedom from Original Sin from FIRST moment (as we rightly believe) or only AFTER she had miraculously prayed for it one second later than her conception (the other alternative).

That had been a dispute for some centuries between Dominicans and Franciscans when Pius IX of blessed memory was preparing the dogma of 1854.

Or the question of freewill and predestination, on which a ban was put.

No one had disputed young earth creationism up to when Lyell and Darwin came around, and even in 1859, George Leo Haydock was not in the least disputing it.

However, had the Pope meant "this has recently become disputed, I am now putting my foot down to stop the evolutionary nonsense", he would have been entirely within his rights.

Even when here formulating the rights he was not using, he was using the phrase "pass judgement".

Had he passed judgement that Evolution is wrong, he would have met a Modernist defection. And wounded Cardinal Bea, whom he had made his father confessor. Had he passed directly judgement that Evolution is actually OK to actually believe - he would have met the kind of opposition that Rad Trad Catholics are now giving the real successors of him, in this and subsequent acts of apostasy.

He did neither. He washed his hands.

Dave Armstrong
Note again, that submission is not confined to ex cathedra statements – the authoritative “world” which RadCathRs seem to wish to reside in almost exclusively. Pius XII then touches (I notice) upon development of doctrine and Church authority, which has relevance to the current dispute over Vatican II and supposedly “novel” doctrines:

Humani Generis
21. . . . together with the sources of positive theology God has given to His Church a living Teaching Authority to elucidate and explain what is contained in the deposit of faith only obscurely and implicitly. This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church . . .

Hans Georg Lundahl
Is he perhaps overdoing development of the Doctrine? Is "only obscurely and implicitly" really the language of St Peter on St Paul, or of Council of Trent?

When it comes to Holy Mass, one could say that the full doctrine of the Mass would be only obscurely and implicitly contained in Hebrews - if it were the only source. If there was not also OT prophecy (Tu es sacerdos in aeternum secundum ordinem Melchisedec - one of the really clarifying points in Hebrews - or Malachi 1:11 - or the words of institution). But as these other Bible passages do in fact exist and also liturgic tradition, the deposit of faith in total does contain the doctrine of Holy Mass as a real and propitiatory sacrifice very clearly.

So, is he perhaps here overdoing the case of Protestants, against Trent?

Dave Armstrong
In other words, let the Magisterium determine such weighty matters, not “each of the faithful,” as in RadCathRism and sola Scriptura Protestantism.

Hans Georg Lundahl
That misses that the Church has already for two millennia been determining it for us, in favour of Biblical Creationism.

Dave Armstrong
Then he declares upon the relationship of evolutionary theory to the Catholic Faith:

Hans Georg Lundahl
No, what he does is not DECLARING, what he does is REFUSING to declare it either way.

Humani Generis
36. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that,

Hans Georg Lundahl
"Does not forbid" does not exactly amount to clearly affirms licitness of.

Trent clearly affirmed licitness of monastic vows, necessity of those bound by eternal vows of keeping them and a few other ones. Oh, why not honouring images.

And the language used by that council very clearly was not a "the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that"! It was a clear malediction on those who did consider these things forbidden.

Humani Generis
in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology,

Hans Georg Lundahl

When is the "present state" from? 1950 January 1st to December 31? 1925 to 1975? A general "present" in principle, reapplicable time after time to whatever state will be present then?

What the "present state" of human sciences is, can be gathered by some analogy, in general, like after Volta they know more about how electricity works.

That the bones of dug up belong here, and the even more clams dug up belong here, and the measurements of carbon 14 in such and such a deposit, no doubt at all.

But do evolutionist conclusions firmly belong there? Or can creation science counter arguments belong as weightily to it? Or can they by now even have totally countered evolution, except to Atheists and Modernists of ill will?

So, "according to present state" is very ambiguous.

Humani Generis
research and discussions,

Hans Georg Lundahl
So far a question not of belief, but of research and discussions. Please shout if you see "believing evolution" mentioned later on! I didn't!

Humani Generis
on the part of men experienced in both fields,

Hans Georg Lundahl
So the "judgement", if such, doesn't concern, so far, ordinary Catholics.

It concerns a select group of people, men experienced in both fields.

Was Teilhard the Chardin experienced in both fields or just heterodox in both fields?

And gravely so?

Why was Teilhard de Chardin judged as a person, but not one word about the doctrines contained in his works?

Perhaps some Galileo syndrome.

Humani Generis
take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution

Hans Georg Lundahl
OK, the research and discussions can take place with regard to evolution.

It still does not clearly say we can actually believe evolution!

Humani Generis
in as far as it inquires

Hans Georg Lundahl
And note how Pius XII avoids getting into what it actually affirms!

Humani Generis
into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter

Hans Georg Lundahl
What is preexisting and living matter?

Was he actually talking about the doctrine of how babies are made?

A sperm and an egg cell, both human, fully human, are indeed pre-existing and living matter for each human body. But that is not evolution.

Was he talking about Norse Mythology stating that Ask and Embla were created of two tree trunks?

If these were no longer living trees, in that story, they were not altogether devoid of life either, and so that would be pre-existing and living matter.

Note that he altogether avoids the issue of evolution from some kind of monkey (note that the generic term is applicable to the kind of primate evolutionists state we have evolved from!)

Humani Generis
– for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Oh yes. Thank you.

ONE clear judgement! And a correct one.

Traducianism is condemned, and therefore probably Book of Henoch is not inspired. At least not if he is right (which I think he is, despite all the learning of Rob Skiba to the contrary) and if that book also says that the souls of the nephelim were spiritual offspring of the fallen angelic fathers rather than direct creations by God - unless, again, you would say that Nephelim were not really human at all, though they might have children which were, if you see what I mean.

Also, more to the issue of evolution, is the proposition that human mind is an emergent property of an evolved primate brain, which does not require any soul substance and especially not one distinguishing man from beast ontologically.

THIS however is NOT in itself a licence to believe that the body of man, on the contrary, did evolve from lesser primates. Some of which would be classified as monkeys or apes.

Nor is Pius XII again directly condemning that. He is shirking the issue.

Creation vs. Evolution : Scenario impossible
[part six on a previous series mainly against Catholic Evolution accepters.]

Humani Generis
However this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution,

Hans Georg Lundahl
What we history and letters buffs call "the reception" of this document very much passed by this aspect of giving reasons for BOTH opinions.

Humani Generis
be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure,

Hans Georg Lundahl
When exactly was this condition fulfilled?

Humani Generis
and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faithful[11]

Hans Georg Lundahl
What judgement is he speaking of?

NOT Humani Generis, which is judging sth else, namely the conditions of a debate not having taken place since, but, logically, a future judgement.

However, this he does not even say.

He is (or was) - or so it would seem - very clear about the idea, which he very obstinately refused either to voice or to oppose, that the judgement had already been given by a canon of the Council of Trent.

Humani Generis
Some however rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from preexisting and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts,

Hans Georg Lundahl
Oh, thank you!

But this also is NOT a judgement in favour of actually BELIEVING evolution. If anything it is a reproof (however without canonical consequences, that I see in immediate context!) precisely of actually believing as opposed to just philosophically and agnostically discussing evolution.

However, here again, we are in the kind of ambiguity which the present tense constitutes.

What the Church has taught between Christ and Trent is a very determinate space of time, especially if we allow the canon took force directly at that session.

But this mental judgement on how the proofs were at present in 1950 can have been radically changed.

If Trent were somehow wrong, they could have changed to proofs actually proving evolution beyond a shadow of a doubt.

If Trent was - as it was - right, then they could have changed from "evolution not proven right" to "evolution proven wrong" in the meantime.

And if these conditions have so changed, then a man knowing that should not be hampered by the insistance on moderation and on being prepared to submit to a future judgement of the Church on the matter.

Humani Generis
and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question.

Hans Georg Lundahl
What if the sources of divine revelation on the contrary demanded the greatest firmness and intrepidity in rejecting evolution?

Only if he was in some sense a budding evolutionist would the reaction the sources of revelation demanded from HIM be "greatest moderation and caution". At the very least.

Humani Generis
37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Thanks again!

One evolutionist heresy, though not compulsory for each and every evolutionist according to his standards, recondemned.

But the Church had already condemned Isaac La Peyrère's theories that certain men do not descend from Adam.

Probably taken from his Jewish origins, since some Talmudists said that we Goyim are not men.

STILL no direct acceptance of a common faithful actually believing evolution.

Humani Generis
For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Yep, true men after Adam are Adamites.

What about "true men before Adam"? Or "anatomical, but not soulfilled men before Adam"? Or "men just seemingly such but not true ones even after Adam"?

The mainstay of - now this I do not have a document for, rather rumours from a Trad seminarian (now married layman) about what had been said back before Vatican II - the mainstay of Pius XII-era evolutionism as orthodoxly Catholic would have been saying "Cro-Magnon and Neanderthals were no true men, if they had been, they should have had agriculture and writing, not lived for tens of thousands of years without these!" They would therefore have said that even anatomically perfectly human bones, from Cro-Magnon, despite showing art, and as dated before Biblical Adam (who might have coincided with Neolithic Revolution) were just anatomically men, but ontologically really primates.

In the face of this, considering Reepicheep as a mouse made in the image of God is the lesser absurdity. If Narnia Creation account is not good theology per se, it is at least an excellent highlight of why this does not work.

Adam and Eve were not one couple among a several of "Cro Magnon humanoids" then chosen by God for the extra adventure of getting a soul. And even that would have been less evil to suppose, than saying that they descended from, each, a mother and a father whom they needed to look down on for philosophical and obvious communicational reasons.

This pre-Vatican II-option is madness. And it is clearly NOT the voice of Trent.

Humani Generis
Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which through generation is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Hear, hear. All he has to say is, it is in no way apparent HOW such an opinion can be reconciled. But still not totally excluding that in some future it can be so.

Or if we take this as litothesis - the gentler way on judging him - what about any clear indications on how evolution in more general terms than polygenism or emergent soul can be reconciled either with the Teaching Authority on Original Sin (among other items, not forgetting Trent and Biblical Inerrancy), or with this ban on polygenism and emergent souls.

Dave Armstrong
Note that belief in the theory of evolution is in no wise prohibited for Catholics in good standing.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Oh yeah?

Where exactly was THAT in the quoted words?

Nowhere at all.

Dave Armstrong
The pope could have easily stated such a prohibition if indeed this was what the Church wished to teach.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Or he could have failed the Church.

Do you recall the episode on why he put an encyclical condemning Nazism in the cupboard?

It is told by Pasqualina Lehnert, a sister who was serving him, in her book "Ich durfte ihn dienen".

He was going to sign it.

He read in a newspaper, Netherland's episcopacy had already condemned the Nazi version of Antisemitism, which was by then Persecution. Hitler immediately ordered 20,000 Jews deported into camps. Pius XII said that if that is how he reacts even to just bishops condemning him, "a condemnation by the Pope would provoke 100,000 deportations".

It has been said over and over again, that this non-condemnation was a cowardly act.

If Pius XII was cowardly in 1942, or at least anything near "more discreet than obviously courageous", where would he have mustered the courage by 1950?

If not openly condemning Nazis gave him opportunity to save the bodies and lives of some more Jews, and even many, would not a similar discretion have been useful for saving the bodily lives of a few more Catholics in, for instance, Eastern Europe?

Dave Armstrong
But he did not.

Hans Georg Lundahl
As said ... but he pretended to be doing something while he was simply stalking for time.

Dave Armstrong
Good Catholics may believe in evolution in good conscience,

Hans Georg Lundahl
That is how the encyclical was received.

Dave Armstrong
provided that they do not accept it in a materialistic fashion,

Hans Georg Lundahl
In what other fashion, then?

Dave Armstrong
do not deny that each individual soul is a direct creation of God, or accept the false notion of polygenism

Hans Georg Lundahl
Yes, noted. But not noted that under this proviso believing evolution is actually licit. Not even according to the words of Pius XII in this encyclical.

Dave Armstrong
– which view adversely affects Original Sin.

Hans Georg Lundahl
As if evolution in general did not?

By the way, you mean adversely affects believing there is Original Sin. As for the thing itself, it SHOULD be adversely affected, by baptism, for one.

Dave Armstrong
And I say this as a creationist myself – one who has written much against evolution and debated the issue for 18 years now.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Good for you, but I missed it. I did note the writings against Geocentrism - a somewhat similar issue, at least as far as Biblical Inerrancy is concerned.

Would you mind linking to an examply of your eighteen years of writing against evolution?

Dave Armstrong
So how is it that many RadCathRs speak so dogmatically of evolution, as if it were utterly impermissible for a Catholic to believe? By what authority do they do so? By what reasoning do they refer to the present Holy Father as an “evolutionist,” as if this were some terrible and scandalous epithet? And ho do they manage to blatantly disobey the above Encyclical from Pope Pius XII 1950, which itself is quite harsh on modernism in other sections? More internal contradiction and self-defeating arguments . . . Again, I personally believe that macroevolution has not occurred [actually, since 2000 I have moved a bit and have assumed a provisional agnostic attitude until I do further study, but in any event I deny as vehemently as ever that standard evolutionism can be explained solely through natural processes], but I will not pontificate about issues (as a matter of supposed Catholic dogma) which the Church in its magisterial authority has not settled. I actually think that Papal Encyclicals ought to be adhered to, just as Pius XII said!!!

Hans Georg Lundahl
But if the Church already DID settle it, in Trent?

Dave Armstrong
What a novel concept!

Hans Georg Lundahl
Evolution indeed is.

So was, especially after this recommendation of caution, the new stance of Pius XII in 22:nd of November 1951, though that was just an allocution, not an encyclical. It was given to scientists.

As such, it was much less noted than the encyclical. On the other hand, all bishops around the world more or less had to note it, if they could. This they might then take as the "[future] judgement of the Church" and as obliging them to accept at least Old-Earthism.

And this is the game that has been played over and over again, Communion in the Hand, Women as Readers or as Ministrants ... and so on.

Now, a layman making his own syllabus of errors may seem to be a novelty too. But perhaps Dave Armstrong had permission from his bishop.

I have not done so, though my arguments could be used as background and defense for one.

I have copied and commented the one given by Bishop Tempier in Laetare Sunday of 1276:

En lengua romance en Antimodernism y de mis caminaciones : Index in stephani tempier condempnationes

In the relevant diocese, there may be a rumour that this syllabus was revoked simpliciter 48 years later. That is not so, the revocation was a polite gesture to St Thomas Aquinas, and it seems it contained no direct items rehabvilitated in the form given as condemned in 1276.

Redoutant cette dérive fidéiste qui s'était amorcée suite à l'intervention de Tempier,

It is the opinion of Louis Valcke that St Thomas Aquinas was a progressist in relation to his age (stated previous paragraph) and that the St Bonaventura and John Duns Scotus attitude (which was adverse to parts of St Thomas "openness" and installed "after" - not necessarily because of, at least Valcke dared not say that - the condemnations by Tempier, was to John XXII a "fideist drifting", which he was countering by canonising St Thomas.

le pape Jean XXII allait réhabiliter la doctrine thomiste par la canonisation, en 1323, de Thomas d'Aquin, suivie, deux années plus tard, de la levée, par Etienne Bourret, de tout interdit que cette doctrine avait pu encourir de par la condamnation de 1277, comme il a été dit ci-dessus.

The lifting of every interdict which the Thomistic doctrine COULD have incurred by the condemnations 48 years earlier.

Not the lifting of a single interdict which any enumerated thesis per se actually did incur in itself, irrespective of what St Thomas (who was not mentioned in the letter introducing the syllabus!) might have felt about it. As long as it was not Thomistic, the condemnation stood.

That is why the list of these condemnations continued to be copied during the Middle Ages, when it was done by hand, and ontop of that, in University and similar contexts, only on order of a bishop, basically.

So, standing by Étienne or Stephen Tempier, I am not braving Stephen Bourret in any way.

This means that I have not done what I am asking Dave Armstrong about.

Now, his syllabus has also ##1 - 4:

1.That the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid or “objectively offensive to God.”

2. That the Second Vatican Council is qualitatively different from preceding Councils, or invalid, or intrinsically heretical (modernist), or shot-through with modernist “ambiguity,” or a corruption or “evolution” of received Catholic dogma – as opposed to a consistent (Newmanian and Vincentian and Thomistic) development – so that it is not binding on Catholics, and may be routinely opposed, and not obeyed.

3.That Vatican II is the root and central cause of the present modernist crisis (as opposed to the machinations of theological liberals and heterodox, who “hijacked” or “co-opted,” distorted and twisted the orthodox, papally-approved Council for their own wicked ends).

4. That the pontificates of John XXIII, Paul VI, and John Paul II are qualitatively different from those preceding them, or that they have knowingly (or even unknowingly, as dupes) presided over the destruction of the traditional Catholic Faith, passed down from the Apostles, or that they are material or formal heretics

I think the problem started earlier.

I also think that the hijacking took place through complacency of Pius XII, before his eyes, with his concurring to it, like this thing in 1950 or next thing in 1951.

One who took the name of Clement XV claimed that already Pius XII was no longer a Pope. And before he is written off as predecessor of John-Gregory XVII (Gaston Tremblay) in Canada (who ordains women), it would seem, I have it from Pope Michael (or possibly just Bishop Bawden) that he was forced to resign. Now, a forced resignation is not valid, as we know from canonical discussions about the Siri rumour.

He did not stay with this man, but returned to Clémory. I do not know if at present they have another Pope or not. But they are more likely to be the Church or part of the Church or a strayed part of the Church at worst than the people with whom Ecumenism is presently done.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre University Library
St John of Matha

* Footnote on title: On December 9th this year, he wrote: quoted from earlier:

DA in article:
"Again, I personally believe that macroevolution has not occurred [actually, since 2000 I have moved a bit and have assumed a provisional agnostic attitude until I do further study, but in any event I deny as vehemently as ever that standard evolutionism can be explained solely through natural processes], but I will not pontificate about issues (as a matter of supposed Catholic dogma) which the Church in its magisterial authority has not settled. ... And I say this as a creationist myself – one who has written much against evolution and debated the issue for 18 years now."

The day after writing above, I find his mail as he tells me:

Dave Armstrong:
I'm not properly classified as a creationist (or an evolutionist), but rather, as an anti-materialist. I'm not sure which method God used to create.

I think thought, see explanation later this might mean either that he has evolved since the day he wrote this, or that he was already back then not a creationist, but misspoke when saying "I say this as a creationist myself".

My answer to him was:
Are you sure which method God used to inspire the Bible?

A notification
was also given.

Dave Armstrong:
Your asterisked footnote about me is inaccurate as well. The non-bracketed quotation of mine is from the year 2000, not nine days ago. See the date in parentheses at the top of the paper you got it from. The bracketed addition (in green) is of a later unknown date, but it's still not from nine days ago. That was merely when I re-posted the old paper onto Patheos. Being 15 years off and mislabeling me are the least of your problems . . .

OK, this will be added to footnote. Shall title spell "No Longer Creationist"?

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