Did Tianyuan Man Live Pre- or Post-Flood?

Did the Jomon People Arrive to Japan in Pre-Flood Times? · Did Tianyuan Man Live Pre- or Post-Flood?

Tianyuan man seems ancestral to Ancient Beringians. East Asians seem to have more partial ancestry in him, because of later migrations to the area.

This according to a video by Mysterious Origins from 18th of April this year.*

Now, the problem is, normally this would imply he was post-Flood, but on my view the carbon date of the Flood is 39 000 BP. This coincides with the latest possible date he is given, and yes, it is a carbon date:

In 2007, researchers found 34 bone fragments belonging to a single individual at the Tianyuan Cave** near Beijing, China.[1][2] Radiocarbon dating shows the bones to be between 42,000 and 39,000 years old, which may be slightly younger than the only other finds of bones of a similar age at the Niah Caves in Sarawak on the South-east Asian island of Borneo.

So, the question is, could this be pre-Flood, as the dates suggest?

One could imagine a genetic contributor line to the Ark being mixed in the four marriages and then reconstituted more in some branches than in others. For instance, a blue eyed person will have two alleles for blue eyes. suppose he married a brown eyed person with two alleles for brown eyes. All of his children will in fact have brown eyes, but all will have an allele each for brown and blue eyes. And when two people of such configuration marry and have children, one in four of their children will have blue eyes, because he will have two alleles for blue eyes. So a part, but only a smaller part of the descendants will reconstitute the unmixed original setup of two alleles for blue eyes.

The problem with this scenario is, given the number of alleles it would take to have someone identify as clearly related to Tianyuan man, the reconstitution is very much less likely. Unless, perhaps, it was Noah's genotype, like Tianyuan man was Lamech or Methuselah or someone like that.

That too would involve a problem, unless one could trace all of the haplogroups for Y chromosomes back to Haplogroup K2b (Y-DNA) and one in three haplogroups for mitochondrial DNA to Haplogroup B (mtDNA).

To me, as no more than an amateur and in human genetics not even amateur expert, this seems improbable. While the presumed origins of these haplogroups are given as 50 000 BP (a pre-Flood date in carbon dating), the ancestral and parallel haplogroups are also post-Flood ones, i e still existing after the Flood.

To me, it's pretty clear from genetics that Tianyuan man is post-Flood. If a real geneticist has a way around this, so much the better, but I'll go with Tianyuan man being post-Flood.

This makes the carbon date a problem to be solved.

1) False age values were given. Not my priority, even with Red China.
2) My whole theory breaks down. Also not my priority.
3) In the early post-Flood centuries, the first roughly half of the 350 years before Noah died and Babel began, there was a dip in carbon 14 that descended to pre-Flood values.
4) Reservoir effect.
5) Uneven mixing of the carbon 14 in the atmosphere.

Hypothesis 3. Can a total block of added carbon 14 with the decay produce such a dip?

2958 BC,

1.6277 pmC, dated as 37 000 BC***

2848 BC (extra item)

1.1174 pmC, dated as 40 000 BC

2738 BC

11.069 pmC, dated as 20,933 BC***

110 years

* 98.678 %

1.6277 * 98.678 / 100 = 1.6062 pmC — no. One would need at the same time an emission of old carbon.

But the problem is, old carbon would be from the Flood and also have after decaying a value as high as 1.6062 pmC.

Hypothesis 4. Can the reservoir effect explain such a misdate?

We know that the reservoir effect can make human remains date up to 300 years earlier in normal stable pmC conditions. But the fact is, in conditions or steadily rising carbon 14, this would be misdating by far more than 300 years, though the modern experts who presume a stable pmC scenario do not reckon on this.

So, does the 300 extra years mean 100 % of the carbon intake is from an on average 300 year old sample? Or 50 % fresh and 50 % from an on average 600 year old sample? I think there is some room for someone dying a century or two after the Flood (Tianyuan man) to date to 200 before the Flood, one interpretation of which would be, namely if the last 220 years before the Flood were same rate of production as now, ending in 1.6277 pmC during the Flood, would be 40 600 BP.°

Now, is there anything about the Tianyuan Cave that would make the reservoir effect actually probable? Yes. See the German version of the wiki on the cave.°°

Die Höhle bildete sich in präkambrischem Kalkstein ... Die Fossilienfundstätte wurde in Fachkreisen international bekannt, nachdem es gelungen war, die Hauptkomponenten der Nahrung des in der Höhle entdeckten, rund 40.000 Jahre alten Fossils eines Homo sapiens, genannt Tianyuan 1, zu identifizieren: Süßwasserfisch.

So, whoever lived in the cave was drinking water from a stream in calcium context (one good factor for reservoir effect) and also feeding mainly on fish from the same water supply (other good factor for reservoir effect). I think this may nail it.

Hypothesis 5. Could uneven mixing of the atmosphere explain it?

Yes, but considering the potential of the reservoir effect and its probability due to the cave, exploring this option seems superfluous for now.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. John's Nativity
24.VI.2025

Nativitas sancti Joannis Baptistae, Praecursoris Domini, ac sanctorum Zachariae et Elisabeth filii, qui Spiritu Sancto repletus est adhuc in utero matris suae.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw60nkaogyE

** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianyuan_man

*** First and third items are, unlike the extra item, from:

Creation vs. Evolution: Newer Tables, Flood to Joseph in Egypt
Christmas Eve 2024, by Hans Georg Lundahl
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2024/12/newer-tables-flood-to-joseph-in-egypt.html

° Creation vs. Evolution: What Would 220 Before the Flood Date To? Carbon Wise?
8.II.2025, by Hans Georg Lundahl
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2025/02/what-would-220-before-flood-date-to.html

°° https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianyuan-Höhle

As a Roquefort Fan, I Need to Share This

Is your cheese on the verge of extinction?
by Robert Carter | This article is from
Creation 46(3):56, July 2024
https://creation.com/cheese-verge-of-extinction

As the article was from 2024, has the Penicillum Roqueforti in the meantime been saved?

Wadi Hammeh, Not Babel

Wadi Hammeh is just East of the Jordan River, so not in Sinear if that means Mesopotamia.

Wadi Hammeh is in Pella, Jordan, where the Church of Jerusalem fled. They also came back from there, after the Roman smash fest was over and so made them ancestral to Jerusalem's Christian Palestinians.

So, if Wadi Hammeh is not Babel and Göbekli Tepe or possibly Karahan Tepe is, how much older is Wadi Hammeh?

I'm using the

Newer Tables, Flood to Joseph in Egypt
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2024/12/newer-tables-flood-to-joseph-in-egypt.html

which presume that Babel is Göbekli Tepe, and that the Exodus was in 1510 BC. As well as 480 years from Exodus to Temple being a minimum time span off by decades, rather than telescoping timespans in the Judges.

Now, if Babel began 350 after the Flood, when Noah died, or soon after, and is Göbekli Tepe, Wadi Hammeh is obviously earlier, but how much earlier?

Wadi Hammeh 27 is a Late Epipalaeolithic archaeological site in Pella, Jordan. It consists of the remains of a large settlement dating to the Early Natufian period, about 14,500 to 14,000 years ago.

So, 12,500 BC. In Carbon dates.

2660 BC

30.555 pmC, dated as 12,461 BC

...

2608 BC

43.443 pmC, 9500 BC

Wadi Hammeh was 52 years older (or just a little more) than Babel. Could it be where Noah went the last years? Could this be the place where he drank too much wine? And how compatible are the fifty years with "severalgenerations" mentioned in the article?

The people of the Natufian culture were nomadic foragers, but at Wadi Hammeh 27 they built large, durable dwellings that were maintained and revisited over many generations.

Let's see the arguments in the source article, shall we?

Ice Age villagers of the Levant: renewed excavations at the Natufian site of Wadi Hammeh 27, Jordan
Phillip C. Edwards, 2015
https://www.antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/edwards347

The Natufian has been claimed as an example of pre-agricultural sedentism, but the length and frequency of its habitations remain unclear. One issue is that, for the majority of sites, long-term occupation of a single locale by hunter-gatherers would deplete food resources (cf. Munro 2004).

Would fifty years be too much?

These concerns are the focus of a new La Trobe University project (Edwards 2014) entitled ‘Ice Age villagers of the Levant: sedentism and social connections in the Natufian period’, directed by the author and co-directed by Louise Shewan (Monash University/University of Warwick) and John Webb (La Trobe University). In order to achieve the project’s aims, the new excavations are intent on stripping away more of the overlying deposits of phases 2 and 3 at Wadi Hammeh 27 to expose the basal travertine layer (phase 4), where human burials are situated in rock-cut pits (Webb & Edwards 2013).

Would the overlying deposits be a way of covering those there buried?

The first series of excavations, conducted in the 1980s, focused on the site’s uppermost deposits in phase 1 (Edwards 2013). A small sounding (XX F sondage) made at that time also demonstrated occupational continuity between the superimposed phases and the community memory of a sub-site burial by the building of successive cairns and other markers.

That's obviously, for 50 years, less impressive than for 3000 years.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Ember Saturday of Pentecost
14.VI.2025

Did the Jomon People Arrive to Japan in Pre-Flood Times?

Did the Jomon People Arrive to Japan in Pre-Flood Times? · Did Tianyuan Man Live Pre- or Post-Flood?

I pose the question in a provocative way.

Some are now taking the peopling of Japan as starting in 40 000 BP, which, if true, would be somewhat annoying for me, since I pose the Flood in 37 000 BC. Carbon date wise, of course, in fact only as far back as 2957 BC.

If this were true, it would be some kind of stretching of the matches, it would force me to ask if sometimes, even apart from the reservoir effect, something post 2957 BC could date to carbon years previous to 39 000 BP.

However, the idea of Jomon people arriving in Japan c. 40 000 years ago comes from the Tategahana Paleolithic site in Nojiri-ko.

Here is the article I first found about it:

Geology and Quaternary environments of the Tategahana Paleolithic site in Nojiri-ko (Lake Nojiri), Nagano, central Japan
Y. Kondo et al. | Dec. 2017
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618217300307

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.quaint.2017.12.012

What do I find?

Fossils of animals. An assemblage which is suggestive of human interference. Carbon dates from 37.9–60.4 ka. And, manmade tools.

What do I not find?

People of similar anatomy or genes or both to the actual human skeleta from the Jomon period proper. Or any people at all, for that matter. Dogus, a cultural artefact typical of Jomon culture. And this after nine excavations, by 1984.

What height is it?

The water level of Nojiri-ko is at an altitude of 657 m above sea level, with the deepest point at 38.5 m, and it covers an area of 4.5 km2

So, not too high to be a pre-Flood item or water added to a pre-Flood item.

How do I analyse this?

Men of unknown ethnicity (Homo sapiens, Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo erectus) meddled with this ground and its fauna in pre-Flood times. The Flood did not destroy it, but surrounded it by volcanos. Arguably no one came just after the Flood, only at the actual start of the accepted Jomon period.

Carbon dated 14,000 BC is when?

2686 BC

24.08 pmC, dated as 14,456 BC

2673 BC

27.32 pmC, dated as 13,399 BC

So, some time between 2686 and 2673 BC. After Heber was born. Before Noah died and Babel began.

(2686 + 2673) / 2 = 2679.5 BC
(24.08 + 27.32) / 2 = 25.7 pmC

5730 * log(0.257) / log(0.5) + 2679.5 = 13 911 BC

If 2679 "and a half" brings us near 100 years after the date we seek, the real date would be sth like 2680 BC. Clearly post-Flood.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Monday of Pentecost Novena
2.VI.2025

PS, there were actually by now 20 excavations:

In the 20th excavation, conducted in 2014, which involved about 200 people, more than 750 pieces of fossils and archaeological remains were discovered and sediment samples for microfossil study were collected.

Still no human remains. Still no Dogus./HGL

How Long Was the Younger Dryas?

Britannica:

between 12,900 and 11,600 years ago

Swedish wiki:

för cirka 12 800 till 11 700 år sedan

German wiki:

ca. 10.700–9.700 v. Chr.

French wiki:

de 12 850 à 11 650 ans avant le présent / soit une période de 10 900 à 9 700 av. J.-C.

English wiki:

12,900 to 11,700 years Before Present

So, begins 10 900 to 10 700 BC. Ends 9700 to 9600 BC. These years are around the beginning, around a certain middle and just after the end:

2634 BC

37.009 pmC, dated as 10,851 BC*

2621 BC

40.229 pmC, dated as 10,148 BC

2608 BC

43.443 pmC, 9500 BC

So, c. 26 years or less.

It was perhaps less cold than supposed according to this youtube:

How We Know PEOPLE Travelled FAR NORTH In The YOUNGER DRYAS
MegalithHunter | 27.V.2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzuBu93ROvI

* The pmC back when the samples start imply 8200 extra years, since 8200 years of instant age, with some rounding. 8200 + 2634 = 10 834 BC

5730 * log(0.37009) / log(0.5) = 8217 years, without rounding. 8217 + 2634 = 10 851 BC.

Follow Up Question

Did This Last 2000 Years or Only 410 Years? · Follow Up Question

Table of Nations in Genesis 10 was before the reduction of male Y chromosome lines.

So, there were more lines in the time of Table of Nations than there are now.

There are these possibilities:

• we no longer have all the male lines from Table of Nations, they were mostly lost through this reduction;
• most losses were within single ones of the 72 nations, so, each first branched out and then, in male lines, reduced;
• or Table of Nations was originally more numerous, but got updated through remaining lines, probably reducing some groups to "group mentions" (Dodanim could be one such, but so would Mitsraim, Capthorim and Philistim be).

I'm not sure which, while I can't exclude the first one, I tend to imagine the last./HGL

Did This Last 2000 Years or Only 410 Years?

Did This Last 2000 Years or Only 410 Years? · Follow Up Question

See this video:

A Genetic Purge Happened 5000–7000 Years Ago
ReYOUniverse | 18 May 2025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cl-xSNt1TU

Whatever the real reason for the disappearances of so many Y-chromosome lines, or whatever combination, it was arguably not the best time to live.

In Carbon dates, it's 5000 to 3000 BC.

2189 BC

70.415 pmC, dated as 5089 BC

1779 BC

85.963 pmC, dated as 3029 BC

In the Biblical dates of my Newer Tables, it's 2189 to 1779 BC, from near death of Eber to near birth of Joseph.*

Did all of this last for 2060 years or for 410?

There is another point.

Did this begin in Adam's lifespan (for those who believe that Adam and Eve existed but were one couple among many)? Or did this begin after Babel and end somewhat after Abraham's death, Ancient Near East being a place which in his life had already somewhat calmed down?

I think this concerns the goodness of God.

In the conditions described, would not the promise of the Redeemer, the seed of the woman, be lost or over such a long time of trauma modified?

How long after Babel is this supposed to have started? In my tables, 2557 BC, birth of Phalec, is dated to 8000 BC:

2557 BC

51.766 pmC, dated as 8000 BC

This means, it takes 368 years from the scattering of mankind to when this is happening. Some have said the Gentiles, the lines excepting Eber and Phalec, were turned directly over to the demons. This was Michael Heiser's view. I say this is false, there was a time when Gentile didn't yet mean fullblown apostasy from the faith of Noah and his sons.

But the reason why God would chose a people is, there was a time, even on my view 410 years long, when most peoples went very wrong. If God hadn't chosen one nation, all would have gone wrong. He called Abraham, who was certainly taught the truth by the greatgrandfather Sarug, in the nick of time, since the father Thare, and possibly brother but probably grandfather Nachor were going wrong.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Pope St. Celestine V
19.V.2025

Natalis sancti Petri de Morono Confessoris, qui, ex Anachoreta Summus Pontifex creatus, dictus est Caelestinus Quintus. Sed Pontificatu se postmodum abdicavit, et in solitudine religiosam vitam agens, virtutibus et miraculis clarus, migravit ad Dominum.

* Joseph was actually 18 when this was over. So, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph "saw" the end of it. Serug saw it begin. Nachor, Terah, Abraham lived through this time.