Lita, did ANY OT Hagiographer Believe Geocentrism?

Article is a feedback with three letters:

Is biblical creation anti-science?
Published: 31 August 2019 (GMT+10)
https://creation.com/creation-anti-science

Responding to the first, Charles H, you say:

And the Old Testament authors most certainly did not believe in a flat earth nor geocentrism.

In fact, as to belief in flat earth, no OT author can be tied to it (or NT author, since three passages alleged to prove it are from Matthew, Luke and Apocalypse).

But saying they most certainly did not believe flat earth is perhaps overdoing it. They left, at least, the door open for this misunderstanding.

However, you also added "nor geocentrism".

Joshua is both an actor of Biblical history and an author (excepting chapter on his death) of the book telling of his carreer.

Now, in Joshua 10, verse 12, Joshua certainly was, as acting person, and as miracle worker, believing that Sun and Moon move around Earth, or he would not have adressed these when commanding the miracle (and he said before them: Move not, O sun, toward Gabaon, nor thou, O moon, toward the valley of Ajalon) which was after praying (just previously, it has: Then Josue spoke to the Lord, in the day that he delivered the Amorrhite in the sight of the children of Israel,) and therefore not identic to his prayer.

Now, years later or whenever it was, he is hagiographer. In verse 12 he reports in third person what he did and said, and in verse 13 he reports the result.

Now, the article you linked to says, phenomenological language is known from Scripture (Acts 27:27). Fine, but this does not prove Joshua used phenomenological language in verse 12 of chapter 10. Indeed, there is no known miracle where something is adressed which is not changing as such. While bacteria do die or disappear completely when leprosy is cured, the man himself actually does become clean. In cases of exorcism, demons are adressed because demons exist, not, as some accomodationists would have it (one of my issues against Swedish state Church, much less conservative than Missouri synod) because the man psychologically feels certain thoughts as demons.

So, phenomenological language is out of the question when Joshua worked the miracle. Nothing of what Joshua adds in verse 13 when writing suggests he reconsidered it and also we find no example of a miracle worker being wrong about what the miracle was changing as to normal course of things. When Elijah prayed for fire from heaven, he did not get pouring water. Why? Because the one working a miracle is inspired by God, who is omniscient as well as omnipotent.

Obviously, the statements are being given in a local frame of reference. Why? Because the sun standing over Gibeon would not appear to be overhead anywhere except in the geographic vicinity of Gibeon. The valley of Aijalon is to the west of Gibeon. Therefore, the moon would not appear to be to the west of Gibeon to someone standing in Aijalon; it would be out over the Mediterranean.

It so happens, if Geocentrism is true, while the Sun is over Gibeon once a day, the Sun is also over opposite coordinate (E/W) when Gibeon has night. When Joshua spoke, the Sun was indeed over 35° 11′ 00″ East, and not over 124° 49' 00" West (Humboldt county in CA). Instead, when the Sun is over Humboldt county, the Sun is under Gibeon, when the Sun is over Gibeon, the Sun is under Humboldt county. So, the fact Joshua used "over" does also not prove phenomenological language.

Yet there is nothing here to say that he did not temporarily slow down a rotating earth (as well as the hydrosphere and atmosphere). This would produce the same effect. Or He could have stopped the movement of everything in the universe. Same result. That something universal really happened in history is shown by legends of a long night in people groups on the other side of the globe.

I appreciate the diligence about historicity of event, it seems the limit between long day and long night goes through a place in China, but as said, there is a detail showing the "same effect" argument doesn't adequately deal with what God did, namely Joshua's words in verse 12, plus verse 13 adding nothing to indicate Joshua changed his mind on what was normally moving and miraculously standing still.

So, Miss Cosner, you are wrong one at least one OT hagiographer.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Raymond Nonnato
31.VIII.2019

PS, as to Acts 27:27 ὑπενόουν οἱ ναῦται προσάγειν τινὰ αὐτοῖς χώραν - Joshua 10:13 has no verbum sentiendi.

Is Literal Truth of Genesis and Apocalypse Necessary for Christianity to be True?

Newman in an essay in the collection "The Catholic Idea of a University" considered it a historic fact that Antichrist "will" reign, as the tense was correct back in his day, as much as it is a historic fact that Nero has reigned. While this is apt to consider for the team who would make out Newman as a non-fundie, it is here noted because it reminds us that Fundamentalism both concerns early times and end times. CMI reminded me because they had an article with the title, more or less, here.

Well, next question is, would being "hazy" or vague be all that bad for Christianity?

It would be disastrous. In the Douay Rheims Bible online, Deuteronomy 18 is involved in describing Christ as Prophet (as Man, He is King, Priest and Prophet, as outlined by King David in psalm 109, both a ruler putting enemies under His feet and a priest after the order of Melchisedec, and also Prophet, as per Deuteronomy 18).

Here is the heading of that chapter:

The Lord is the inheritance of the priests and Levites. Heathenish abominations are to be avoided. The great PROPHET CHRIST is promised. False prophets must be slain.

And here is one part of the description of THE true prophet:

Thou shalt have this sign: Whatsoever that same prophet foretelleth in the name of the Lord, and it cometh not to pass: that thing the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath forged it by the pride of his mind: and therefore thou shalt not fear him. (Deuteronomy 18:22)

This means, as the end times prophecies unfold, we must make up our minds, if we haven't done so, will they unfold correctly as foretold to the end, or will they include bloopers?

Well, since the person speaking to St. John is Christ, this involves Christ as prophet, as does obviously Matthew 24.

But, since Moses as prophet was lawgiver and the seer of Genesis 1, this means the references back to Genesis in the Gospels, including Adam and Eve, including Noah and the Flood, including Cain and Abel, must be correct too. If they aren't, if they slipped into His teaching from a mind too steeped in erroneous "mythology" of the Hebrews, well, that would make Our Lord a false prophet, which He is not.

Any Christian, specifically Catholic, non-fundies, take note. Why specifically Catholic? Because it's Catholic exegesis which says this description applies to Christ.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibliothèque Parmentier
Vigil of St. Bartholomew
23.VIII.2019

CMI Got Shroud Wrong, I'd Say

When CMI gets off their main topic to actually oppose a Catholic teaching, or tradition, I am divided on where to put my remarks, but since I have promoted them here (for instance with a carbon dated Triceratops), I feel a certain duty to oppose them when they are wrong, and to make at least some initial remarks here, before going on elsewhere.

Shroud of Turin is the topic. They think it is fake.

I agree on one thing, it is not made through any process of decomposition if real, Christ, and His Blessed Mother Mary, left tombs without having decomposed.

Now, there are a few remarks to make very quickly.

• We do not prove the Resurrection by Bible alone. Apostles did not do so on Pentecost. St Paul in Corinthians did so by his witness account, before the book was a Bible book, accepted as such. Witness of Apostles comes before Bible - and before our preserved or not such sindone. The Church as a community taking Gospels as Her history is more important than Gospels standing alone. How do we know Lord of the Rings is a novel? Tolkien's fan base. How do we know the Four canonic Gospels are not novels? The Church.
  
  
• We do not agree that Medieval forgeries were so common that the Church had no possibility of knowing the genuine relics.
  
  
• Neither Shroud of Turin nor Face Cloth of Oviedo contradict the Gospel accounts. There are three pieces : face cloth, large shroud, and bundles of cloth tying both of them around the corpse that God was after Crucifixion. That one Gospel mentions one, another another is not a contradiction, nor an invitation to re-interpret one in terms of other. The first two would normally be considered relics, Oviedo and Turin, while the bundle of cloth straps is gone, probably kept by the angels.
  
  
• Carbon date can be explained in three ways, if genuine : forgery, as in CalTech computer was hacked (by KGB, for instance), resurrection was in some ways radioactive (turning C12 to C14 in the process, a phenomenon observed at nuke explosions, as CMI themselves noted about samples dated 3000 years into the future after one).
  
  
• We know one parallel to figures on Shroud as being figures of atomised people at Hiroshima, on walls. This would also explain why the marks are on both shroud and face cloth. This is also consistent with one of the explanations of the carbon dates.
  
  
• The Shroud is venerated and has been so since well before recent aberrations of the Vatican II sect. This, after Trentine purge of false relics, gives a presumption it is genuine.

That's it for today./HGL

PS, nearly forgot the link to their article:

Is the Shroud of Turin authentic? Or is it a forgery?
by Matthew Cserhati, Rob Carter Published: 16 August 2019 (GMT+10)
https://creation.com/turin-shroud

PPS, as you may have guessed, I am also a defender of the other relics:

• The blood of St. Januarius in a vial in Naples, Italy
• A picture of Mary painted by St. Luke in an Augustinian church in Bologna
• A piece of Moses’ brazen serpent (Numbers 21:5 – 9; 2 Kings 18:4) in the church of St. Ambrose in Milan
• The table on which Jesus partook of the Last Supper in the church of St. John, Lateran in Rome
• The holy stairs which Jesus walked up to judgment before Pilate
• Water from the prison where the apostles Peter and Paul were kept
• The house in which Mary was born (the so-called Santa Casa), transported from Nazareth to Loretto
• Parts of the veil of Mary
• The ‘holy porringer’ in which food was made for the baby Jesus

Scandinavian Stone Age Within Biblical History with my Table

Here is a sequence of Scandinavian Stone age from wiki:

The Ahrensburg culture or Ahrensburgian (c.12,900 to 11,700 BP[1]) was a late Upper Paleolithic nomadic hunter culture (or technocomplex) in north-central Europe during the Younger Dryas, the last spell of cold at the end of the Weichsel glaciation resulting in deforestation and the formation of a tundra with bushy arctic white birch and rowan.

The Scandinavian Peninsula became ice-free around the end of the last ice age. The Nordic Stone Age begins at that time, with the Upper Paleolithic Ahrensburg culture, giving way to the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers by the 7th millennium BC (Maglemosian culture c. 7500–6000 BC, Kongemose culture c. 6000–5200 BC, Ertebølle culture c. 5300–3950 BC). The Neolithic stage is marked by the Funnelbeaker culture (4000–2700 BC), followed by the Pitted Ware culture (3200–2300 BC).

Here is the table:

Noah *

3557 BC

Shem *

3055 BC

Flood

2957 BC

low estim.

c. 1 percent modern carbon (pmc), 38 000 BC (40 000 BP)

Arphaxad *

2955 BC

2868 BC

11.641 pmc, 20 668 BC

Shelah *

2820 BC

2780 BC

22.169 pmc, 15 230 BC

Ahrensburgian

"12,900 to 11,700"

Eber *

2690 BC / 2691 BC

32.584 pmc 11 941 BC

Noah +

2607 BC

Babel begins

2602 BC

42.89 pmc, 9600 BC

Babel ends

2562 BC

48.171 pmc, 8600 BC

Peleg *

2556 BC

2484 BC

53.036 pmc, 7734 BC

Maglemosian

starts at "7500 BC"

Shem +

2455 BC

Reu *

2426 BC

2405 BC

57.849 pmc, 6955 BC

Arphaxad +

2390 BC

Shelah +

2360 BC

2327 BC

62.622 pmc, 6177 BC

Serug *

2294 BC

Maglemosian/Kongemose

ends/starts at "6000 BC"

2249 BC

67.347 pmc, 5499 BC

Peleg +

2217 BC

Ertebølle

begins at "5300 BC"

Kongemose

ends at "5200 BC"

Eber +

2186 BC

2170 BC

72.031 pmc, 4870 BC

Nahor *

2164 BC

2092 BC

76.665 pmc, 4292 BC

Reu +

2087 BC

Terah *

2085 BC

Funnelbeaker

starts at "4000 BC"

Ertebølle

ends at "3950 BC"

Abraham *

2015 BC

2013 BC

81.261 pmc, 3713 BC

Serug +

1964 BC

Nahor +

1956 BC

Genesis 14

1935 BC (high estimate)

85.811 pmc, 3200 BC (could have been "earlier" in archaeology, back to "3500 BC")

Pitted Ware

starts at "3200 BC"

Isaac *

1915 BC

Terah +

1884 BC

Abraham +

1860 BC

Jacob *

1855 BC

1840 BC

87.869 pmc, 2890 BC

Isaac +

1735 BC

Funnelbeaker

ends at "2700 BC"

Jacob +

and Djoser presumed at similar time

1745 BC

89.902 pmc, 2625 BC

Pitted Ware

ends at "2300 BC"

1668 BC

94.231 pmc, 2158 BC

Moses born

when Sesostris III dies, presumably. But this implies the higher layer at Jericho.

1590 BC

98.523 pmc, 1713 BC

Creation vs. Evolution : Table for St Jerome as per Preliminary Conclusion
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2018/05/table-for-st-jerome-as-per-preliminary.html

"St Jerome" refers to the chronology of the Roman Martyrology, as opposed to Syncellus or Ussher, all three of which are purporting Biblical support.

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Background to Christmas Martyrology
http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2019/02/background-to-christmas-martyrology.html

More precision:

2736 BC

27.3765 pmc 10700 - "13436 BC"

Ahrensburgian

"12,900 to 11,700"

2691 BC

32.584 pmc "11 941 BC"

2484 BC

53.036 pmc, 7734 BC

Maglemosian

starts at "7500 BC"

2444

55.4425 pmc 4900 "7344 BC"

2327 BC

62.622 pmc, 6177 BC

Maglemosian/Kongemose

ends/starts at "6000 BC"

2288 BC

64.9845 pmc 3550 "5838 BC"

2249 BC

67.347 pmc, 5499 BC

Ertebølle

begins at "5300 BC"

Kongemose

ends at "5200 BC"

2209 BC

69.689 pmc 3000 "5209 BC"

2052 BC

78.963 pmc 1950 "4002 BC"

Funnelbeaker

starts at "4000 BC"

Ertebølle

ends at "3950 BC"

2032 BC

80.112 pmc 1850 "3882 BC"

1935 BC (high estimate)

85.811 pmc, "3200 BC" (could have been "earlier" in archaeology, back to "3500 BC")

= / > Pitted Ware

starts at "3200 BC"

1792 BC

88.8855 pmc 970 "2762 BC"

Funnelbeaker

ends at "2700 BC"

1768 BC

89.39375 pmc 930 "2698 BC"

1707 BC

92.0665 pmc, 680 "2387 BC"

Pitted Ware

ends at "2300 BC"

1687

93.14875 pmc, 590 "2277 BC"

Now, I did some averaging between Biblical years and between their pmc values, then got the extra years per pmc value and added Biblical year to extra years to get uniformitarian years, and I got the time implication of pmc value from the Carbon 14 Dating Calculator provided by de Turck on University of Pennsylvania.

The short story is, all of Scandinavian prehistory, including Stone Age, is after Flood, and between Palaeolithic Ahrensburgian and Mesolithic Maglemosian, there is a break corresponding to Babel, if considered as Göbekli Tepe.

Which means my table is a fair way to conjugate Biblical history with archaeology.

Ending updates here, same day.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Claire of Assisi
12.VIII.2019

Sanctae Clarae Virginis, primae plantae Pauperum Dominarum Ordinis Minorum; quae ad aeternas Agni nuptias evocata est pridie hujus diei.

"4900 years ago to 4000 years ago"

For real years, look at XIV to XVIII in below table. For "carbon years" look next below to the right, after carbon level and added years:

XIV 1794 BC

86.82 %, + 1150 years, 2944 BC

XV 1704 BC

87.636 %, + 1091 years, 2800 BC

XVI 1614 BC

91.388 %, + 740 years, 2354 BC

XVII 1525 BC

92.632 %, + 630 years, 2155 BC

XVIII 1436 BC

94.953 %, + 430 years, 1866 BC

Creation vs. Evolution : This Morning I Read it's 77 and 68 Years of Radiocarbon
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2017/02/this-morning-i-read-its-77-and-68-years.html

Keep the correspondences in mind.

Koszyce, Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship

A nearby archaeological site revealed in 2011 a mass grave of 15 victims from the late Globular Amphora culture who were murdered in the 29th century BCE. Subsequent analysis revealed that all but one were from the same extended family, and that the bodies had been carefully placed within the grave according to their family relationships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Cemetery_at_Ur#Burial_practices

The bodies at the Royal Cemetery underwent certain burial practices. In the tombs, the primary inhumation is placed inside the tomb chamber usually accompanied by attendants. More bodies or victims are buried too often in separate chambers or, more commonly, in ‘death pits’, an open, sunken court.[6] The amount of sacrificed bodies in one tomb can range from a small amount of six to between seventy and eighty bodies.[6] The attendants are usually lying in neat rows within the death pits or chambers.[3] It is not entirely known if the attendants died placed in that manner or were positioned after death.[3] The principal body was always laid on a mat made of reeds which also lined the floor and walls of the pit where the attendants are located.[6] In some tombs the bodies are arranged in very specific ways. Some tombs were found with male skeletons with helmets and spears positioned in front of the entrance as guards and then contained female attendants inside.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskalamdug

Meskalamdug ("hero of the good land") was an early ruler of the First Dynasty of Ur in the 26th century BCE. He does not appear in the Sumerian king list, but is known from his tomb, grave PG 755 at the Royal Cemetery at Ur, and from bead inscriptions found in Mari, mentionning him as King.

Wolf Rites of Winter
By ERIC A. POWELL September/October 2013
https://www.archaeology.org/issues/102-1309/features/1205-timber-grave-culture-krasnosamarskoe-bronze-age

Around 4,000 years ago, on the steppes north of the Black Sea, a nomadic people began settling down in small communities. Known today as the Timber Grave Culture, these people left behind more than 1,000 sites. One of them is called Krasnosamarskoe, and Hartwick College archaeologist David Anthony had big expectations for it when he started digging there in the late 1990s.

"2900 - 2000 BC" = "900 years".

"2944 - 1866 BC" = "1100 years". = 1794 to 1436 = 370 years.

"2900 to 2000" are within "2944 - 1866 BC".

These examples of human sacrifice (David Anthony has so far not said Krasnosamarskoe involves onein so many words) are from less than 370 years. They start perhaps before Joseph arrives into Egypt, and they go on to less than 80 years past the Exodus.

Can Pagans have taken some cue from Abraham's sacrifice, and then considered they were done when 40 years after Joshua, the Israelites joined their religions (not sure of exact timeline for Judges chapter 2, verse 12)? If so, they got the cue dead wrong, and they also got it wrong which way they were meant to have same religion as Israelites, Christianity being the right way (for Gentiles as for Jews).

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bibl. Audoux, Paris
St. Cajetan
7.VIII.2019

Wait a minute, I had another table where the above horrors were over prior to Exodus, even:

Genesis 14

1935 BC (high estimate)

85.811 pmc, 3200 BC

Isaac *

1915 BC

Terah +

1884 BC

Abraham +

1860 BC

Jacob *

1855 BC

1840 BC

87.869 pmc, 2890 BC

Isaac +

1735 BC

Jacob +

and Djoser presumed at similar time

1745 BC

89.902 pmc, 2625 BC

1668 BC

94.231 pmc, 2158 BC

Moses born

when Sesostris III dies, presumably. But this implies the higher layer at Jericho.

1590 BC

98.523 pmc, 1713 BC

Creation vs. Evolution : Table for St Jerome as per Preliminary Conclusion
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2018/05/table-for-st-jerome-as-per-preliminary.html

Finding the end point:

1840 BC

87.869 pmc 2890 BC

1745 BC

89.902 pmc 2625 BC

1668 BC

94.231 pmc 2158 BC

halfways to next

1629 BC

96.327 pmc 310 extra years, 1939 BC

Thanks to maths and to:

Carbon 14 Dating Calculator
https://www.math.upenn.edu/~deturck/m170/c14/carbdate.html

Theodore McCarrick Ordained After Reorientation among Catholics

Humani Generis came 1950, the allocution to Pontifical Academy of Sciences in 1951 (in which Pius XII used a "5 billion years" radioactive "dating" to prove the earth is not eternal).

McCarrick was ordained in 1958, on May 31:st, a few months before Pius XII died. Ordinator was Cardinal Spellman. He was (or probably wasn't, depending on validity of new episcopal orders or more probably non-validity) "consecreated bishop" in 1977, on Sts. Peter and Paul's day by Terence James Cooke. He was "made cardinal" by "Pope John Paul II" on February 21:st 2001. He resigned last year, 27th of July, and was reduced to lay status (supposing non-pope Bergoglio could do that) on February 15th this year.

His acts need no comment.

I would like to know, between Pius XII in 1958, Cardinal Spellman in 1958, Terence James Cooke, himself and "John Paul II" - was anyone of them a Young Earth Creationist?

I think this is a timeline question that needs to be asked./HGL