Flood or Floods, Missoula?

CMI poses, there was one Flood:

The Lake Missoula Flood
By Michael J. Oard | Published 13 Jul, 2015 | Updated 25 May, 2026
https://creation.com/en/articles/lake-missoula-flood

For forty years, secular geologists denied the Lake Missoula flood happened, despite hundreds of pieces of evidence. They thought it was too ‘biblical’ in scale. Although it is now accepted, most secular geologists believe forty or more separate floods have occurred.

I have nothing in principle against a "biblical" scale, but ...

Missoula floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_floods

Duration Between 15,000 and 13,000 years ago

So, 13,000 to 11,000 BC ... is that carbon dates?

2673 BC

27.32 pmC, dated as 13,399 BC

2634 BC

37.009 pmC, dated as 10,851 BC

If those dates are obtained from organic material, I would say, the span of the events range over somewhat less than the 39 years between 2673 and 2634 BC./HGL

Was the Book of Genesis Revealed to Moses from 1:1 to 50:25?

There might be some old commentaries that would lead to believe so.

However, recall the Hebrew name of the book is also the incipit of a passage.

Bereshit.

It means "to biblion tes Geneseos" but it also means "en arché" (Genesis 1:1)

ΕΝ ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν.

I hold that God revealed this to Moses on Sinai up to 2:4

Αὕτη ἡ βίβλος γενέσεως οὐρανοῦ καὶ γῆς, ὅτε ἐγένετο

But, as in Hebrew, this passage (pericope or parasha) has the same name as the entire book, some will, very erroneously, hold that either Moses knew nothing at all from simple oral tradition about Joseph in Egypt, or he didn't trust the traditional knowledge.

From 2:5 to 50:25, Moses accessed tradition from the participants. (The verses before Adam was created would have been revealed to him rather than to Moses, and while 1:28 to 30 ould have been part of this, this was doubled and superseded by God's granting Moses a vision).

Here is how Haydock figures this out:

— Concerning the transactions of these early times, parents would no doubt be careful to instruct their children, by word of mouth, before any of the Scriptures were written; and Moses might derive much information from the same source, as a very few persons formed the chain of tradition, when they lived so many hundred years. Adam would converse with Mathusalem, who knew Sem, as the latter lived in the days of Abram. Isaac, Joseph, and Amram, the father of Moses, were contemporaries: so that seven persons might keep up the memory of things which had happened 2500 years before. But to entitle these accounts to absolute authority, the inspiration of God intervenes; and thus we are convinced, that no word of sacred writers can be questioned. (Haydock)

(On basically all of Genesis 3, and probably Genesis 2, but added onto other comments on Genesis 3:24)*

As he used Ussher chronology and I use a LXX based, my own view of "minimally overlapping generations" is somewhat different in detail:

I have often cited Father George Leo Haydock's last comment on Genesis 3, which does not make this blunder, and I only disagree on the exact number of minimal overlaps of generations. On the other hand I think, Abraham received chapters 1 to 11 or 2 to 11 (if contrary to Hunter's view the creation days were revealed to Moses rather than Adam, or re-revealed to Moses after the tradition had lost them) and no more than that orally, but from chapter 12 on his scribes could write things that were preserved in the Beduin tribe from his day to the settling in Egypt, with appropriate copies whenever the tribe divided. And even with LXX chronology, Abraham is the sixth, which is even better than Moses being the eighth, in minimal overlaps.

Sylvester Joseph Hunter on Genesis, Henry Morris on 15 Cubits

So, unlike a certain physics teacher I've spoken with** (and who had the attitude of schooling me on each argument, despite winning only one, and that by a sleight of hand), George Leo Haydock and Sylvester Joseph Hunter were actual Catholic priests, were also not illiterate in humanities by being narrowly concentrated on "science" and still sharing its commonest overreaches into philosophy and such a clear humanities issue as reliability of oral tradition.

They were also experts on Catholic theology on this matter.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Pentecost Lord's Day, 24.V.2026

---

* Genesis 4 involves information later than Adam's life, as is certainly the case with Genesis 5 and ensuing, so Genesis 3:24 was the latest practical place to set this comment.

** Our dialogue:

Entretient avec Hans-Georg Lundahl
Gamaliel | 13 mai 2026
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbA12hcq6Q4

my correction of his sleight of hand:

New blog on the kid : Einstein aurait prouvé que ...
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2026/05/einstein-aurait-prouve-que.html

How Much Tectonic Movement Was There in the Flood?

New blog on the kid: Is there a Fifth Corner? · Creation vs. Evolution: How Much Tectonic Movement Was There in the Flood?

CMI and AiG are reputed to have a heat problem.

All tectonic stages from Pangaea to present configuration and all of this in the Flood.

I hold the original four corners of a presumable rectangle or trapezoid are still visible.

The Atlantic has been opened up, matter has been shoved up (mapreading as N = "up") to the Northern areas of Baffin Bay, i e those parts of Canada and all of Greenland.

The Indian Ocean has opened up when India was shoved up (making the Himalaya) and the Antarctic shoved down and Australia with Tasmania shoved East.

But, I don't hold that all of this was ready just after the Flood. No. The Himalayas were rising* to the degree of instability that the Siwalik hills only became inhabitable after Babel, several centuries after the Flood.** The same would be true for other movements, like South America moving away from Africa. The Pyrenees too have only post-Babel human remains, as they were also rising.

Obviously, the Flood did a lot of the job, but there was somemovement just after and it did for some centuries prevent spread of human habitation to some areas.

I think that is to be taken into account when assessing the tectonic movement of the Flood, and if correct, it solves the Heat Problem.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Sts. Nereus and Achilleus, Martyrs
12.V.2026

Romae, via Ardeatina, sanctorum Martyrum Nerei et Achillei fratrum, qui primo cum Flavia Domitilla, cujus erant eunuchi, in insula Pontia longum pro Christo duxerunt exsilium; postmodum gravissimis verberibus attrectati sunt; deinde, cum a Minutio Rufo, viro Consulari, equuleo et flammis ad immolandum compellerentur, dicerentque se, a beato Petro Apostolo baptizatos, nulla ratione posse idolis immolare, capite caesi sunt. Horum sacrae reliquiae, simulque Flaviae Domitillae, ex Diaconia sancti Hadriani in antiquum eorum Titulum, ubi asservabantur olim reconditae, denuo restauratum, solemniter translatae sunt pridie hujus diei, jussu Clementis Papae Octavi; qui exinde hodierna celebrandum die indixit etiam festum ipsius beatae Domitillae Virginis, cujus passio Nonis hujus mensis recensetur.

* Himalayas ... how fast did they rise? · Himalayas, bis ... and Pyrenees · ter · quater · quinquies ... double-checked

** Gudrun Corvinus states in an addendum to her article:

The occupation of the Patu people then must have occurred before 7 000 B.P.

Let's say 5000 BC:

2189 BC

70.415 pmC, dated as 5089 BC

2187 BC

Eber died

2166 BC

71.553 pmC, dated as 4933 BC

2189—2166 BC, with Flood in 2958 BC = basically 800 years. Now, that was sloppy, since 7 000 BP is not usually calibrated to 5000 BC exactly. But if this means "cal BP" then that, being between 7050 and 6950 cal BP, is somewhere around 5050 BC. See the pdf on Minze Stuiver and Bernd Becker's High-Precision Decadal Calibration of the Radiocarbon Time Scale, AD 1950–6000 BC and scroll down to Fig. 20 on p. 55.

From Some Earlier Debates, I Know, Some Think Egyptian Documents Confirm Menes or Narmer, as c. 3100 BC in History As Well As in Carbon Dates

Vindicated! · Some People Think Administrators Don't Lie, Religious People Do · From Some Earlier Debates, I Know, Some Think Egyptian Documents Confirm Menes or Narmer, as c. 3100 BC in History As Well As in Carbon Dates

Diodorus Siculus, 1st C BC, thought, from Egyptian sources that Menes ruled 5000 years earlier.

The Search for the Earliest Kings of Egypt
World of Antiquity | 7 Oct. 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4TeOQrbVjk

Manetho and Abydos King List would agree Menes was the first human ruler.

Palermo King List, which is earlier, doesn't.

we do get the names of some king that immediately preceded the first dynasty: 7:54 Seka, Khayu, Tiu, Thesh, Neheb, Wazner, Mekh. These names do not match the names of gods 8:03 or demigods or spirits of the dead mentioned in Manetho or Diodorus.

If carbon dates associated with Narmer or Menes give c. 3100 BC, I have two solutions possible, for how Abraham met him somewhat before carbon dated 3500 BC:

• like Abraham, he lived long after their meeting, and so his grave has a much later carbon date:
  
  

  1936 BC

  82.763 pmC, dated as 3500 BC
  
  

  ...
  
  

  1816 BC

  Esau is 40, Jacob goes to Laban

  1798 BC

  85.566 pmC, dated as 3087 BC

  
  
  Doesn't function very well with my current calibration.
  
  
• Abraham actually didn't meet Narmer or Menes, but an earlier, pre-unification, king. Like one of Seka, Khayu, Tiu, Thesh, Neheb, Wazner, Mekh.

But either way, a historiography which was able to place Menes variously 3100 BC or 5100 BC was obviously not sufficiently documented about at least these early times to actually calibrate carbon.

Unlike the historic date for the War of Troy:

1179 BC

100 pmC, dated as 1179 BC

Citing my own comment under that one:

VIII, The Fall of Troy

In a way this is the least original. History says (Eratosthenes and precursors of the Christmas Day reading) Troy fell 1179 BC. There is at Troy a destruction layer dated to 1180 BC. I take this as the first detected occurrence of 100 pmC in the atmosphere back then.

This refers to:

The fall of Troy		1184 BC
	interval of 80 years
The return of the Heraclidae		1104
	interval of 60 years
The settlement of Ionia		1044
	interval of 159 years
The regency of Lycurgus		885
	interval of 108 years
The year before the 1st Olympiad		777
The First Olympiad		776

THE CHRONOLOGY OF ERATOSTHENES
By Darrell Wolcott
http://www.ancientwalesstudies.org/id143.html

And the Olympiads actually function kind of as an epoch (like AD does).

Genesis 5 and 11 are a better documentation of time passing than old Egyptian sources, not a worse one.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Michael in Mount Gargano
8.V.2026

In monte Gargano Apparitio sancti Michaelis Archangeli, quem Pius Papa Duodecimus Radiologis et Radiumtherapeuticis Patronum et Protectorem constituit.

PS, it seems Dynasty 0 was in the South, so, Seka, Khayu, Tiu, Thesh, Neheb, Wazner, Mekh might have been too far South to meet Abraham./HGL

An Early Sprachbund Needs an Early Contact

Was Indo-European Group a Sprachbund? · An Early Sprachbund Needs an Early Contact

A few years ago, I wrote:

I think the trade routes we are dealing with would push bilinguals and polyglots to the forefront in these areas for centuries (the trade routes Dan Davis speak of are not springing into existence in 1550 BC to end in 1450 BC in isolation), and, as said, such people carry on habits from one of their languages into another.

Creation vs. Evolution: Was Indo-European Group a Sprachbund?
Wedn. 18 Jan. 2023 | Hans Georg Lundahl
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2023/01/was-indo-european-group-sprachbund.html

Now, I have a reason to maybe push this further back, depending on what the following calibrates to:

The rise of Mycenean culture during the same period was undoubtedly also linked to the formation and establishment of such a new ruling warrior aristocracy. The travelling specialists who accompanied the introduction of this new institution, whether through trade or conquest, were responsible for expanding the horse equipment and its highly elaborate decoration that was associated with this new institution. It explains why similarly decorated antler bits are found from Denmark to Greece during the formative years 1750-1500 BCE, and also explains why chariots are depicted in rock art in Scandinavia and on early Mycenaean grave stelae during the same period.

Middle Bronze Age Decorated Antler Horse Bits Linking Denmark, Hungary and Early Mycenean Greece
by Kristian Kristiansen | [from] Mediterranean Horizons / Archaeological Studies in Honour of Søren Dietz
https://www.academia.edu/166139657/Middle_Bronze_Age_Decorated_Antler_Horse_Bits_Linking_Denmark_Hungary_and_Early_Mycenean_Greece

Let's look up the years* ...

1558 BC

97.75 pmC, dated as 1746 BC

...

1471 BC

99.049 pmC, dated as 1550 BC

Nope, on my calibration from Christmas 2024, the years are the same ... roughly speaking./HGL

* Table VI—VI/VII and node VII in Newer Tables, Joseph in Egypt to Fall of Troy