Affichage des articles dont le libellé est Don Batten. Afficher tous les articles
Affichage des articles dont le libellé est Don Batten. Afficher tous les articles

mercredi 18 mai 2022

Before Hearing Don Batten on AMA, I copy the questions - and give my own answers


The following questions have been copied from the description of this video, which I haven't seen yet:

Creation: Ask Me Anything (AMA)
17.V.2022 | Creation Ministries International
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zrwp68MvbE


Here is the description from which I copy the questions:

Is theistic evolution a viable option for explaining creation? How did all the sea-dinosaurs (Leviathans) die out? What evidence is there for God’s existence? Where does the controversial KNM-ER-1470 (Homo rudolfensis / habilis) fossil fit in a biblical understanding of human history? How did plants and trees survive after the Flood and how quickly did they grow back? Is the oldest house found in Britain really 11,500 years old, as claimed? Is there any evidence for a mass Exodus from Egypt? These are just SOME of the questions we have received in the last few days! Join us on Tuesday as we answer these, and many more!


Here are the questions actually written out (I can't respond to a question series of which my sole indication is "many more" [questions]).

Is theistic evolution a viable option for explaining creation?

For Adam, or the beginning of mankind, definitely not. I say this as a linguist. Human language and beast vocal communications work as differently as clothing from housing, mainly in the fact that the human mind can express a huge variety of notions and an infinity of propositions, true and false, about how these notions relate. To do this, human language can refer to absent objects and events (even without dramatic reliving of memories) and this means the abstraction level of having ways to say "back then" or "in a possible future" or "would have happened if something else had been different" or "not" and for these to modify the ways in which the notions are conveyed. This also means, a complete message is not conveyed in one unitary vocalisation, like when an ape can say "eeeek?" in a certain tone, along with certain gestures and it means "how are you?" and another ape can answer "eek, eek!" meaning "I'm fine" or "don't worry" or "let's be happy" or whatever, on the contrary, a complete message very typically involves more than one morpheme, and a complete morpheme involves more than one sound, the sounds of any language being an organised spectrum of phonemes. And each phoneme in and of itself (unlike a specifically sounding "eek" of an ape) meaning nothing. Vowels are, with or without nasalisation, differentiated by different positions of the highest point of the back of the tongue in the mouth (tongue tip as highest point is usually more about consonants), and as this is an infinity of different positions, the vocalic phonemes are organised by so to speak cutting out certain limitations for the positions of any given vowel. Both French and Swedish have a gradation of front vowels [i e ε], written for Swedish long vowels / i e ä / and for French short vowels / i é è / - but there is a difference on where the limit goes between [i] and [e] in the languages, since when I intend to say [e] / é /, French people sometimes hear [i] / i / - the limit gives more space to [i] in French, more space to [e] in Swedish. With consonants, gradation is less gradual, it's difficult to put a point of articulation between the [p] and the [t], however, the human apparatus has a very much bigger repertoir of possible consonants than any given language has, every language leaves out possibilities, like Romance languages except Romanian don't have [h], except again, Mexican Spanish replaces [χ] and Brasilian Portuguese replaces initial [R] with [h], or of Germanic languages, only English has both [w] and [þ], or Standard Chinese and Bavarian lack the voiced plosives [b d g]* ... so, to be able to correctly represent any morpheme in any given language, you do not only have to know what it sounded like to you when you first heard it, but also how many** different phonemes there are in the language and how they contrast to closest different phoneme, and obviously in what basically arbitrary order the phonemes come in a morpheme (cat and act have the same phonemes in a different order). There are specific differences between human and ape as to vocal communications directed apparatus, with at least hyoid, ears, and brain clearly differring. An ape could not hear many of the consonants a human uses. It could also not produce clean and clear cut vowels, since the air bags at the ape hyoid make for higher volume at the cost of clear sound. And the absence of Broca's and Wernicke's areas in the brain (the former leaving traces in the skull) as well as a different version of the FOXP2 gene, probably related to these, make it impossible for the ape to learn human language. Any inbetween would be very hard to imagine and probably, if accurately imagined, somewhat too dysfunctional to push evolution on. In popular terms at least, it would be clearly impossible to develop human from ape in parallel with anatomy and mental skills involved.

While Australopithecus and Paranthropus have outer half of the ear (auditory duct, malleus) closer to human or at human, they have the inner part (incus and stapes) clearly ape, and Australopithecus has been found with an ape hyoid, none of these have been found with traces of Broca's area, nor with any human hyoid.

Anything in genus homo, except some perhaps misplaced exemplars of non-Rudolfensian Homo habilis, lacks anything clearly ape. Homo erectus soloensis has some tendency towards ape in the ear, but is clearly closer to normal human range. See also the next one.

For a real man to have an origin that is real non-human, would involve growing up with no real language and not acquiring one while one is biologically predetermined to do so. For a real man to be such, he needs a fully human speech apparatus (brain, hyoid, ears), and for a birth to be non-miraculous, non-human supposed progenitors would need these too, to hand them on, and it is not clear an animal without a human mind (see true notionality) could use such a thing. For Adam to have been a gradually emerging population, you need miracle on miracle, but not the ones recorded in the Bible and unlike these seemingly very difficult to imagine, or to make sense of - and for Adam to be born of anatomically similar but ontologically different beings, beast in human bodies, would make him a feral child and them a God knows for how long series of total misfits. It would be more cruelty to living creatures before Adam sinned than simply dinosaurs getting cancer or being carnivorous.

More generally, things like dog and cat developing from common ancestors do not have this problem, but they have another one, at least on a sufficiently broad scale. And I don't mean a non-proven for the time scale proposed, which is also an issue, along with historic certainty for the one of the Bible. The human body has about 111 different types of cells. A bone cell, a red blood cell, a white bloodcell of this type or of that type, a liver cell, a muscle cell, a nerve cell ... all of these are different, and at least most take more than just a small part of the genome to build. Whole genes, and combinations of whole genes is actually more like it. Now, the 111 cell types very certainly do not all of them go all of the way back to LUCA. They have not been observed to be emerging, unlike for instance reproductional barriers. It has been counted that, apart from new types of nerve cells, the cells form on average one new type every 3 million years. We have not seen any form, in any organism. And one mutation will not create even one new gene, much less the number of different genes that will define a cell type. Evolution, with or without Theistic added, is dead. Jacques Monod thought new genes could perhaps form if mutations combined from both parents, but they can't, the loci from each parent are on a different chromosome (or chromatide, for those calling the pair a chromosome) in the offspring.

* An extreme example of restriction is Hawaiian : Hawaiian is known for having very few consonant phonemes – eight: /p, k ~ t, ʔ, h, m, n, l, w ~ v/ (the funny shape before h, that is ʔ, is a glottal stop) ... Hawaiian has five short and five long vowels, plus diphthongs...
** Basically, you don't need to be aware of the fact Swedish long vowels are exactly 10 - unless I forgot one.

Where does the controversial KNM-ER-1470 (Homo rudolfensis / habilis) fossil fit in a biblical understanding of human history?

First of all, I don't know whether it has Broca's area or not, but if it has, it's human. Second, it's being very close to non-human creatures like (I presume) Paranthropus, suggests we have some kind of nephelim or by-products of these, like results of some deliberate orc-breeding : obtaining populations prone to aggression and extreme obedience to orders, and callous and jealous of more normal human beings. Third, it's being found in Olduwai confirms the pre-Flood origin, since in a certain place there we have eight layers of lava interspersed with sediment that include fossils.

Creation vs. Evolution : Isn't There a Geological Column in Laetoli, and Aren't the Footprints Proof of Human Ancestors?
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2014/10/isnt-there-geological-column-in-laetoli.html


When millions of years are written in lava above something, I go "pre-Flood, the lava trapped more argon through quicker solidification, that's where the excess argon comes from" ...

How did all the sea-dinosaurs (Leviathans) die out?

Many would have been buried in sediment in the Flood, and any surviving the Flood would probably have gone extinct since then.

What evidence is there for God’s existence?

Human language (see above, first question, along with cell types), human reason and morality (see C. S. Lewis' Miracles 1947~1960), the cosmos if we agree with our senses on Geocentrism, since the daily motion around Earth involves a first mover.

Let's give a little overview of each of the remaining ones.

We cannot know evolution or materialism without reasoning, and without ascribing valid reasoning to the reasoning we do about these matters. Some of us (unlike C. S. Lewis at the time) don't believe Evolution even so, not because of mistrusting human reason, but because Evolution believers have reasoned badly (confer what I just said about Jacques Monod). But a mind that is just a byproduct of matter,and that byproduct refined by evolution to guarantee optimum conditions for survival, is as such, not a tool to discover universal validity of certain logical syllogisms or to reason about truths that do not affect our physical world in any immediate sense : so the view is self refuting. Reason has to be a transcendant. This same also applies to morality. And arguably reason and morality are one and the same transcendant, they transcend sensations, emotions, individual cases in much the same way. They cannot be rooted in man, because man does not always live up to them, because each man according to his memory has lived a limited time, while these transcendantals require an ab aeterno existence, and this also involves mankind having been around for a limited time. So, this leaves pantheism, dualism and theism. Pantheism is out because it involves "God" fooling "Himself" whenever we reason wrongly, or being evil, whenever we defy our morality. Dualism is out because one cannot readily imagine good and evil as or mind and body (which are not the same pair) as simply co-existing without imagining a kind of space in which they co-exist (it would let either theism or naturalism in the back door) and that leaves theism.

Now, forget for a moment of what you have been taught about how the "solar system" works. Forget about Earth orbitting the Sun and about Earth spinning around the own axis. If we started from scratch, from observations, isn't there something other we could arrive it, without turning two of the things we observe, a yearly and a daily motion, inside out in our explanations, as compared to what we observe? Yes, but that involves Eötvös effect and Ocean currents, Moon, Sun, Jupiter, Saturn and even the so called fix stars spinning around Earth in very quick speeds (if fix stars are one "light day" up, I've heard the term is not commonly used, the speed would be 2π or 6.28 times the speed of light). Yet the bodies keep their general either fixes or periodically shifting relations. Therefore this spin is ordered by some power mightier than it takes to just spin all of it around earth at that speed.

And of course, some miracles in history point to God as a necessary explanation.

How did plants and trees survive after the Flood and how quickly did they grow back?

One option is, some plants and plant parts floating about took root after the Flood.

One option is, unlike beasts, God created plants back from nothing, from scratch.

And some living plants would have been on the Ark.

Is the oldest house found in Britain really 11,500 years old, as claimed?

Let's first look up the story:

Archaeology World : Le délai d’attente est dépassé
Le serveur à l’adresse archaeology-world.com met trop de temps à répondre.
https://archaeology-world.com/6000-years-older-then-stonehenge-oldest-house-in-britain-discovered-to-be-11500-years-old/


OK, I'll try reddit. Ha, found sth archaeology oriented after all:

Oldest house in Britain discovered to be 11,500 years old
By chris, June 17, 2021
https://ancient-archeology.com/oldest-house-in-britain-discovered-to-be-11500-years-old/


The circular structure of the 11ft-wide building, found at a site near Scarborough, North Yorkshire, has been dated as being made in 8,500 BC. It stood next to an ancient lake and close to the remains of a wooden quayside.


8,500 BC or 9,500 BC? In the former case it should have said 10,500 years old in the title!

Dr Conneller said the hut was used for at least 200 to 500 years – and may have been abandoned for long stretches.


Let's take the time scales suggested, shall we! 9,500, 9,300, 9,000 or on the other view or reading, priorising text over title, 8,500, 8,300, 8,000 BC. And as it is wood, we can be pretty sure this was carbon dated.

Former view, it was contemporary with Babel:

2607 B. Chr.
0.428224 pmC/100, so dated as 9607 B. Chr.
2585 B. Chr.
0.45483 pmC/100, so dated as 9085 B. Chr.


It was in use between 2607 BC or somewhat later, when Babel began, to 2585 BC, or somewhat later, midway through Babel. C. 22 years, not 200 or 500. Obviously, as the house itself was not in Babel (Göbekli Tepe in what is now Turkey), there was a spread of mankind different from the dispersion.

Latter view, it was early on after Babel:

2556 B. Chr.
0.481415 pmC/100, so dated as 8606 B. Chr.
2534 B. Chr.
0.494539 pmC/100, so dated as 8334 B. Chr.
2511 B. Chr.
0.507242 pmC/100, so dated as 8111 B. Chr.
2489 B. Chr.
0.519918 pmC/100, so dated as 7889 B. Chr.


2556 to either 2534 (again 22 years) or to some time between 2511 and 2489, say to 2500 BC (56 years).

Creation vs. Evolution : New Tables
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2020/08/new-tables.html


This view doesn't prevent that there was such a spread before the dispersion either, just means this house wasn't proof of it.

What would this be like? Well, after the Flood, people did spread, all over the earth, but they retained a global meeting place, which in Noah's lifetime was the Landing Place (perhaps Mt. Judi near Cizre, it is in the mountains of Armenia, and that is what "Ararat" really means. Afterwards, they removed this landing place "from the East" and Göbekli Tepe is c. 300 km or a bit more even near due West of Mt. Judi. What God destroyed was not a single spot habitat of all men, it was the meeting place of an international élite. Babel, while it lasted, between Noah's death and Peleg's birth, was a bit like Paris or New York are today. That was what God ended, when they did a project intended to "save (part of) mankind from the next Flood" by getting to Heaven. If Göbekli Tepe was it, Nimrod executed shirkers or project critics by beheading and by threading up the heads on ropes, after putting holes through them. They were piled on top of each other. This gruesome remnant has been found in Göbekli Tepe. Secular archaeologists think of it as a skull cult, the skulls of deceased people being seen as having some occult power.

In the case the house could be from before the end of Babel, the longer spells of absence might be due to the owner being off with his family on a visit or two to Nimrod 2 915,9 miles away. 4692 km and 686 meters, that would take 313 days to walk, with normally good roads, perhaps twice or three times as long with bad roads at this time. On a total of 8035.5 days, it would have been possible (though probably not done bc of wastefulness) to just walk back and fourth 24 - 25 times in this timespan. To imagine they went there three or four times is clearly realistic.

Is there any evidence for a mass Exodus from Egypt?

There is the story. There are traces within Egypt of the ten plagues (the Ipuwer papyrus). Barring total impossibility (which would require Naturalism or Deism) that would normally be enough.

On one view of how the pharaonic timeline fits with the Biblical one, which I share, Amenemhet IV has a cenotaph because he left Egypt in a hurry, after striking an Egyptian overseer, while the pharao of the Exodus doesn't even have a cenotaph.

There is probably more, and some of it might not fit this view, and I have confidence Don Batten would be aware of those newer digs.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Pope and Martry Martyr St. John I
18.V.2022

Ravennae natalis sancti Joannis Primi, Papae et Martyris; qui, ab Ariano Italiae Rege Theodorico illuc dolo evocatus, ibidem, ab eo propter orthodoxam fidem diu maceratus in carcere, vitam finivit. Ipsius autem festum recolitur sexto Kalendas Junii, quo die sacrum ejus corpus, Romam relatum, in Basilica sancti Petri, Apostolorum Principis, sepultum est.

lundi 9 mai 2022

"Creation Week Entailed a Series of Miracles"


Correct as far as it stands. Here is the context:

CMI : Answering a most-asked question
Distant starlight and the biblical timeframe
by Don Batten First appeared in CMI Australia Update, May 2021
(re-) Published: 10 May 2022 (GMT+10)
https://creation.com/distant-starlight-and-the-biblical-timeframe


The question does not trouble me for three reasons:

1. Creation Week entailed a series of miracles.


It doesn't trouble me for one reason: all days entail a series of miracles.

Let's be precise. That the Sun being at this angle gives light from this angle and adds up to a day with sufficient light and heat to sustain what needs sustaining as it so needs, is not a miracle. It's just common providence, and follows from optics and from how electromagnetic spectrum involves heat production.

But that the Sun is at this angle and then at that, involves a miracle - God turning the universe around earth, each day, from East to West. And Sun going on a ride in it. And another miracle, an angel on God's command going (365 times less fast than its speed at solar height over earth) around the zodiac, now under Virgo, now under Pisces, to mention two.

Joshua's long day involves both God and the angel (and the angel of the Moon) doing their movement differently, resting. It does not involve Earth changing behaviour, like "ceasing to rotate" (and then resuming it).

Does the Bible say anything like God doing things differently?

There was not before nor after so long a day, the Lord obeying the voice of a man, and fighting for Israel. Joshua 10:14

The Lord is not the sun and also not the angel of the Sun. We deal with God's moving of the universe, ceasing and resuming at the voice of a man named, like another Man on a Cross, Jesus.

And the angel?

The sun and the moon stood still in their habitation, in the light of thy arrows, they shall go in the brightness of thy glittering spear. Habacuc 3:11

zə·ḇu·lāh; habitation

I'd have loved a clearer parallelism with Judges 5:20, here:

War from heaven was made against them, the stars remaining in their order and courses fought against Sisara.

mim·mə·sil·lō·w·ṯām; from their courses

But the point is, with each day a miracle:

  • there is no distant starlight problem (even on levels like those omitted by Don Batten, like novas of stars exploding 8000 or more light years away and now observed), since the first part of the cosmic distance ladder is attributing the length between two contrary points of the zodiac to Earth around Sun rather than Sun around Earth, therefore forming a triangle with star observed from Earth and also itself unmoved;
  • there is no incongruity with what Joshua says in verse 12 and the effect taking place as if Joshua had said the right thing to the right objects, since he had
  • miracles follow a regular law of God upholding and moving the universe
  • God's existence (if not personal character) can be proven even to Pagans, like St. Paul says in Romans 1.


And obviously, whether I see tomorrow morning or not, my life having become somewhat dangerous, when it comes, morning will have broken like the first morning (of day II, I presume) and blackbird will have spoken, like the first day (V).

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Hermas
9.V.2022

Romae sancti Hermae, cujus Apostolus Paulus in Epistola ad Romanos meminit. Ipse autem Hermas, digne semetipsum sacrificans acceptabilisque Deo hostia factus, virtutibus clarus caelestia regna petivit.

mardi 29 décembre 2015

Other list from CMI of lifespans


1) Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : "in a time when most people died at an average age of 35" ; 2) What others have to say about Life Expectancy through history - and my take on that ; 3) Longevity in Selected Ancestry and Inlaws of Eleanor of Montfort ; 4) Tudor Times Demographical Stats ; 5) How Many Hours are we Talking About, and How Heavy? ; 6) New blog on the kid : When "Answers" Paint Middle Ages Black ; 7) Creation vs. Evolution : CMI Provided some Lifespans of the Past ; 8)Other list from CMI of lifespans ; 9) Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Medieval and Early Modern Lifespans, Again: Berkeleys and Related ; 10) Story of a Cardinal's Title with Pre-Industrial Demographics

Creationist contributions to science
by Don Batten
Day of Holy Innocents, Monday 28-XII-2015
http://creation.com/creationist-scientist-contributions


I cite:

Francis Bacon (1561–1626), the classical scientific method; Gerardus Mercator (1512–1594), cartography, inventor of the Mercator map projection; Galileo Galilei (1564–1642), physics, astronomy; Johann Kepler (1571–1630), astronomy; Blaise Pascal (1623–1662), probability, hydrostatics, the barometer; Robert Boyle (1627–1691), chemistry, gas dynamics; John Ray (1627–1705), natural history; Nicolaus Steno, founder of stratigraphy (geology); Isaac Newton (1642–1727), dynamics, gravitation law, law of cooling, reflecting telescope, spectrum of light, co-inventor of calculus; Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz (1646–1716), mathematics, co-inventor of calculus; John Flamsteed (1646–1719), Greenwich Observatory Founder; Carolus Linnaeus (1707–1778), taxonomy, biological classification system; John Dalton (1766–1844), atomic theory, gas law. There are many others.


Let's agree to disagree on whether four of these were good science contributors or not : Bacon, Galillei, Kepler and Newton. Some say they did LOTS and it was all or mainly good for science. I agree they did LOTS, but some was deciselvely bad for it. However, the lifespans I do not dispute, I will again make a chart of life expectancy of learned men 16th – 18th Centuries. I am adding Steno's lifespan from other page. Since he was worn out from mission among Protestants and died early, this is a point against mine. However, his life span is only second lowest.

(1561–1626), 65 : 39 1/13 minimum 39
(1512–1594), 82 : 55
(1564–1642), 78 : 59
(1571–1630), 59 : 64 4/13 lower quartile 64
(1623–1662), 39 : 65
(1627–1691), 64 : 70
(1627–1705), 78 : 71 7/13 median 71
(1631–1686), 55 : 73
(1642–1727), 85 : 78
(1646–1716), 70 : 78 10/13 higher median 78
(1646–1719), 73 : 78
(1707–1778), 71 : 82
(1766–1844), 78 : 85 13/13 maximum 85

But do lifespans rise or sink or neither, during the period? Let's divide the thirteen into an earlier seven and a later seven, counting the mid one in both categories.

Born up to 1627(both lifespans starting from that year):
(1561–1626), 65 : 39 1/7 minimum 39
(1512–1594), 82 : 59
2 - 3/7 Lower quartile 59 - 64
(1564–1642), 78 : 64
(1571–1630), 59 : 65 4/7 median 65
(1623–1662), 39 : 78
5 - 6/7 Higher quartile 78
(1627–1691), 64 : 78
(1627–1705), 78 : 82 7/7 maximum 82

Born from 1627(only the lifespan ending later from that year):

(1627–1705), 78 : 55 1/7 minimum 55
(1631–1686), 55 : 70
2 - 3/7 Lower quartile 70 - 71
(1642–1727), 85 : 71
(1646–1716), 70 : 73 4/7 median 73
(1646–1719), 73 : 78
5 - 6/7 Higher quartile 78
(1707–1778), 71 : 78
(1766–1844), 78 : 85 7/7 maximum 85

Yes, there is a rise. Minimum rises 16 years, lower quartile 6 - 12 years, median rises 8 years, upper quartile is identic and maximum rises 3 years.

This should not be read as if highest life expectancy(not to be confounded with statistical life expectancy) had significantly risen, but that hazards making people "die before their age" have been reduced, if not in overall population, at least among these learned ones.

Actually, during part of industrial revolution, the poorer classes were arguably dying younger than before, due to new hardships when fewer men tend bigger production entities with security measures not yet provided and medicine not yet there for them.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Cergy
St Thomas Becket
29-XII-2015

mercredi 6 août 2014

But "I believe ALL of the Bible is true ..."

Before I really became a Christian, at least before knowing very well the Gospel story, and my own baptism had been delayed "until I could chose for myself" because of different confession of parents, I was open to very many winds of shifting doctrine. For instance, in school, first or second grade, a school teacher who gave us lessons in "religion" had voiced her opinion:

  • Genesis/the Bible/First Book of Moses (can't recall which of the words she used, think it was "the Bible") is myth from Adam to Noah.
  • Genesis [etc ] is partly myth, partly true history between Noah and Abraham.
  • Genesis is true history from Abraham on.


And I believed that. Now, one day my mother had arranged for a Pentecostal to come and visit me and play with me (or technically not a Pentecostal yet perhaps, but one raised by such).

At one point I gave the above résumé, and I am certain I used the word "the Bible".

But he answered: "I believe ALL of the Bible is true."

He never came again. Not sure whether he was forbidden to go to us by his parents after hearing my deficint creed, when it comes to Biblical inerrancy, or whether my grandma - an Atheist and Evolution believer, unlike ma - forbade him to come to us. Or perhaps he just didn't very much like me. I have no memory of disliking him, but I know I was taken aback by the genial simplicity of his words. When you state it that way, the theory of my teacher seems a bit shabbier, like a kind of compromise and shilly-shallying. Or when you have heard someone stating it that way.

But there is another little twist on this. The word "myth". Per se it does not mean "made up story", it means rather simply "story", it is the real Greek word for "story", while the word "story" itself, also Greek, in its original trapping "historia" means "research". A historian was unlike the poets not giving one myth about an event in the past nor conflating different ones into a larger one, but rather comparing the myths, i e versions, about same events, and discussing in some detail the rational reasons to prefer one myth over another in a given case.

One commenter on yesterday's CMI article* stated against the "it is poetry" argument against historicity that Charge of the Light Brigade** was also poetry and it was definitely about a historical event at the Battle of Balaklava on the Crimean.

But - to return to the confusion of termninology behind my already mentioned school teacher's words - not only is this true of narrative poetry set in the recent past, like Tennyson's Charge of the Light Brigade, or Camões As Lusiadas, or one Greek Tragedian's Persai, it is also true of narrative poetry set in a more remote past, like Homer*** writing around 800 BC (after Assyrians had destroyed remains of Hittite Empire) of events having taken place around 1200 BC°, perhaps before the Hittite Empire even ended.

Ulysses and Paris and Hector°° are often counted as "myth" these days when not only Pagan Greeks, but also most Christians of the Western tradition (even as far east as Greek/Russian Orthodox) have taken rather the view this was historical than that this was pure invention. And Hercules is counted as myth, these days but St Augustine thinks he and Romulus were historical persons.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Bourg la Reine
Transfiguration of Our Lord
6-VIII-2014

* CMI : Christian leaders who uphold Genesis
by Don Batten
Published: 5 August 2014 (GMT+10)
http://creation.com/scholars-uphold-genesis


** By Alfred, Lord Tennyson.

*** Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Homer (again)
http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2013/10/homer-again.html


° Wiki has "Traditional dating: c. 1194–1184 BC; Modern dating: between 1260 and 1240 BC" - I think the traditional date will hold if the modern dating depends on C14, in an atmosphere not yet having our levels of C-14 in relation to C-12, but being close to having them.

°° A case has been made Hector MIGHT have been a fable, intended by Homer to give unity of action as well as showing a more loveable kind of soldier than many of the rest: someone who simply fought for the city he was born to, rather than for swaggering about glory and glutting in acts of cruelty.

vendredi 28 février 2014

The Abiogenesis Problem

1) Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on Abiogenesis and Evolutionist Ideology, 2) Creation vs. Evolution : The Abiogenesis Problem, 3) Provisional Caveat to Previous

I recently said that abiogenesis is part of the same ideology as the one which says life evolved from simple cells to very complex organisms, like us or other mammals or like birds and fish and reptiles and the rest and which also says that earth "evolved" from part of the gas cloud that "evolved" into the sun. As well as is orbitting around it each year and rotating around itself each day. As well as that the gas cloud behind the solar system came from Big Bang.

How does abiogenesis tie together with Evolution properly speaking and Evolutionist theory of how Earth came to be?

You can imagine biological life had always been there, but in that case it would be more natural to assume it had always been there in roughly the same kind of complexity as we see now. To imagine it had always - very literally always without any beginning at all - been there in the form of very simple cells but somehow started to develop to life as we know it only some billions of years ago is frankly not very credible.

So, Evolution theory has hardly any case without Abiogenesis being at least possible. At the best life could be going in circles and the start of manycelled life in Cambrian explosion or before would only have been the start of a new cycle.

And if you believe the cosmogony and cosmology of Big Bang, then you cannot have anything like eternal life as it is, nor even life going eternally in cycles. So, to this set of ideas, which do form a whole, abiogenesis is somewhat crucial.

This can be formulated as "Evolution is baseless without a good theory of abiogenesis, which it does not have." This is listed as Creationist "Claim CB090"* in the Talkorigins list of refuted creationist claims. It gives for this particular formulation the source: Mastropaolo, J., 1998 (2 Nov.). Re: The evolutionist: liar, believer in miracles, king of criminals.*

I might have formulated it otherwise than Mastropaolo, like:

  • Evolution from a single cell presupposes a single cell did arise from non-living matter, and if that is impossible, evolution scenario cannot possibly be true.

    And adding

  • Earth arising purely naturally from Big Bang (via gas clouds forming solar system etc) presupposes that life later arose from non-living matter, and if that is impossible, Earth cannot have arisen after non-being without a creator before that either.


However, the Talkorigins site gives us Mastropaolo's formulation and pretends to refute it like this:

  • 1. The theory of evolution applies as long as life exists. How that life came to exist is not relevant to evolution. Claiming that evolution does not apply without a theory of abiogenesis makes as much sense as saying that umbrellas do not work without a theory of meteorology.

  • 2. Abiogenesis is a fact. Regardless of how you imagine it happened (note that creation is a theory of abiogenesis), it is a fact that there once was no life on earth and that now there is. Thus, even if evolution needs abiogenesis, it has it.


To which I answer:

  • 1. Umbrellas do not work without a theory of meteorology allowing for rain to exist. The theory need not be conscious, but a conscious theory that says "rain does not exist" or from which good logic could conclude "rain does not exist" is incompatible with umbrellas. The problem in the quip is that rain is observed and working umbrellas are observed, abiogenesis is not oberved and evolution from one celled mature organisms to life on a visible level is not observed "while it happens".

  • 2. Abiogenesis does not usually refer to life arising through a creator creating it, but in any context outside this quip it refers to life arising from exclusively non-living matter without any conscious intervention behind itself. And that is not a fact. Evolutionists do not have that. They may think they can prove that indirectly through the subsequent story being true (but I have shown elsewhere on this blog they not only cannot prove that but the opposite can be proven. Or they may think they can prove that from modern cosmological theories of how earth arose, but they cannot prove those either. They have, as far as I am concerned not even proven Heliocentrism is either a fact or likely to work without divine intervention.


This leads to their claims that abiogenesis functions and to the claims on our side it doesn't.

Complex organic molecules, such as the bases in RNA, are very fragile and unstable, except at low temperatures. They would not hold together long enough to serve as the first self-replicating proto-life.

Here I totally second the formulation given by Talkorigins (in Claim CB030) and extracted from Jerry Bergman and Harun Yahya.**

I will now give the four replies** with my replies to them:

I
Talkorigins
The source Bergman cites for the fragility of RNA bases (Levy and Miller 1998) disputes abiogenesis only at high temperatures, around 100 degrees Celsius. They also conclude, "At 0 degrees C, A, U, G, and T appear to be sufficiently stable (t1/2 greater than or equal to 106 yr) to be involved in a low-temperature origin of life." They also say that cytosine is unstable enough at 0 degrees Celsius (half life of 17,000 years) that it may not have been involved in the first genetic material. The discovery of a ribozyme without C-G bases shows that genetic material without cytosine is plausible (Reader and Joyce 2002).
HGL
But what about the chemicals like ammonia and similar that would have destroyed them?
II
Talkorigins (a)
If synthesis of nucleo-bases is catalyzed and hydrolysis is not, we expect the nucleo-bases to accumulate. Formamide, which can form under prebiotic conditions, has been found to catalyze the formation of nucleo-bases (Saladino et al. 2001; Saladino et al. 2003).
HGL
But what about the chemicals like ammonia and similar that would have destroyed them?
Talkorigins (b)
RNA degrades quickly today because there are enzymes (RNAses) to chew it up.
HGL
We concede that RNA would not have degraded quickly because of these enzymes in a pre-biotic scenario. But what about the chemicals like ammonia and similar that would have destroyed them?
Talkorigins (c)
Those enzymes would not have evolved if RNA degraded quickly on its own. If complex organic molecules were so fragile, life itself would be impossible.
HGL
We reply that they are so fragile and that life is possible by creation only, or (disconsidering other factors) in a steady state universe, but not by abiogenesis plus evolution.
Talkorigins (d)
In fact, life exists even in boiling temperatures or at very high acidity.
HGL
But not exposing RNA directly to it without protection.
III
Talkorigins
Life need not have begun with highly stable molecules. Eigen and Schuster developed a notion of chemical hypercycles, in which many chemical components coexist; each component of the reaction leads to other components, which eventually reform the original one (Eigen and Schuster 1977). Chemicals involved in such a cycle need not persist longer than the duration of the hypercycle itself.
HGL
Their isolation from other chemicals which would have led elsewhere than to next part of cycle would however need to persist as long as any series of hypercycles lasts.
IV
Talkorigins
Organic molecules may have grown in association with stabilizing templates, such as clay templates (Ertem and Ferris 1996), or parts of the hypercycles mentioned above.
HGL
Clay templates would not have given sufficient complexity. Plus we still have the problem of how the organic molecules are protected while growing - if such a thing happened at all before life as an ongoing concern (in which the molecules are adequately protected in the cases they survive).


I heard one theory that such molecules were likely protected by vesicles of lipids or proteines. Proteine vesicles presuppose life has formed already, since proteines are synthesised in living organisms. Lipid vesicles give us that same problem, except my opponent claimed that it had been shown that lipids could form with rocks acting as catalysts. This I had not previously heard, and my immediate source gave no source for it. It was actually a few turns later in the dialogue that he gave the links to Talkorigins on Abiogenesis.

None of them adressed the problem of lipids for cell membranes, even in the form of very simple vesicles.

However, Don Batten on CMI does adress it:***

Lipids (‘fats’) are essential for the formation of a cell membrane that contains the cell contents, as well as for other cell functions. The cell membrane, comprised of several different complex lipids, is an essential part of a free-living cell that can reproduce itself.

Lipids have much higher energy density than sugars or amino acids, so their formation in any chemical soup is a problem for origin of life scenarios (high energy compounds are thermodynamically much less likely to form than lower energy compounds).

The fatty acids that are the primary component of all cell membranes have been very difficult to produce, even assuming the absence of oxygen (a ‘reducing’ atmosphere). Even if such molecules were produced, ions such as magnesium and calcium, which are themselves necessary for life and have two charges per atom (++, i.e. divalent), would combine with the fatty acids, and precipitate them, making them unavailable.9 This process likewise hinders soap (essentially a fatty acid salt) from being useful for washing in hard water—the same precipitation reaction forms the ‘scum’.

Some popularisers of abiogenesis like to draw diagrams showing a simple hollow sphere of lipid (a ‘vesicle’) that can form under certain conditions in a test-tube. However, such a ‘membrane’ could never lead to a living cell because the cell needs to get things through the cell membrane, in both directions. ...

...

In the 1920s the idea that life began with soapy bubbles (fat globules) was popular (Oparin’s ‘coacervate’ hypothesis) but this pre-dated any knowledge of what life entailed in terms of DNA and protein synthesis, or what membranes have to do. The ideas were naïve in the extreme, but they still get an airing today in YouTube videos showing bubbles of lipid, even dividing, as if this were relevant to explaining the origin of life.


It irritates me that neither Niels Steigenga nor Don Batten have shown anything about a link as to under what conditions lipids form vesicles in test tubes. The little research I have been able to do on my own over wiki does not give any clue as to abiotic formation of lipids. So, since Don Batten links to a feedback article by J. Sarfati,° and since he links to a no longer existing article on NASA ... well, finally it links to (reserving surprise for those curious enough to read the footnote).

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Pope St Hilary
28-II-2014

* Claim CB090
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB090.html


It refers to:

Mastropaolo, J., 1998 (2 Nov.). Re: The evolutionist: liar, believer in miracles, king of criminals.
http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199811/0040.html


** Claim CB030
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB030.html


It refers to:

Bergman, Jerry. 2000. Why abiogenesis is impossible. Creation Research Society Quarterly 36(4)
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/36/36_4/abiogenesis.html


Yahya, Harun. 2003. The secrets of DNA
http://www.harunyahya.com/dna03.php


*** CMI, Origin of life
An explanation of what is needed for abiogenesis
by Don Batten
Published: 26 November 2013 (GMT+10)
First section after intro, Getting all the right ingredients, d. Lipids
http://creation.com/origin-of-life#lipids


Note 9 links to this reference:

Chadwick, A.V., Abiogenic Origin of Life: A Theory in Crisis, 2005;
origins.swau.edu/papers/life/chadwick/default.html


° CMI Feedback archive → Feedback 2001 Self-made cells? Of course not!
http://creation.com/self-made-cells-of-course-not


Sarfati cites in note 1) "The original paper is Dworkin, J., Deamer, D., Sandford, S., and Allamandola, L., Self-assembling amphiphilic molecules: Synthesis in simulated interstellar/precometary ices, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (USA) 98(3):815–819, 30 January 2001; see online overview." But the link under online overview is no longer functional. I also found it on the following page (also in note 2 by Sarfati):

News Release: 01-06AR NASA Scientists Find Clues That Life Began in Deep Space
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2001/01_06AR.html


Here is what happens with the nonfunctional link (present not just on CMI but also on previous by NASA! "Further information about this research is available at"):

While trying to retrieve the URL: http://web99.arc.nasa.gov/~astrochm/vesicle.html

The following error was encountered:

Unable to determine IP address from host name for web99.arc.nasa.gov

The dnsserver returned:

Name Error: The domain name does not exist.

This means that:

The cache was not able to resolve the hostname presented in the URL.
Check if the address is correct.

Your cache administrator is webmaster.


The first substance mentioned on - as yet - functioning link by NASA is "Figure 1 and 2. Pyranene dye encapsulated in various sizes of vesicles made from a room temperature residue from the above described simulations." But Pyranene may be a typo for also mentioned encapsulated pyranine. Which is used to make hair blonde, and which is irritating (Reizend, XI) ... it is an organic compound, but if it were present in early atmosphere (no real knowledge as to how it forms) it would be likelier to destroy any budding proto-life than to be membranes for it. It is very clearly not a lipid.

Sarfati also linked to one other similarily non-existant page and to one which gave a 404 Error ("The page you're looking for isn't here") on its site./HGL

lundi 28 octobre 2013

Linking to an Interesting Claim about Birds Found with Dinosaurs

CMI : Modern birds found with dinosaurs
by Don Batten
http://creation.com/modern-birds-with-dinosaurs


Discussing a sign in a museum:

Sign at the American Museum of Natural History, 2011. Contrary to the sign, Dr Werner discovered that many types of birds have been found with dinosaurs including ducks, loons, flamingos, albatross, owls, penguins, sandpipers, parrots, cormorants, avocets, as well as extinct birds such as Mononykus, Archaeopteryx and Hesperornis. While these extinct birds did have teeth, many other modern types of birds without teeth have been found. By leaving this fact out, the museum display misleads the public.


Click link above for more!