vendredi 7 octobre 2016

Answering Rationalwiki on Genesis 5:1 to 6:4

Commented on :
Rationalwiki : Annotated Bible : Genesis Chapter 5
Boring Genealogies, part 1

Genesis 5:1 Notes
This starts the genealogy listed in the Bible, following the other religious figures. Note that the ages listed in the Bible imply that the individuals lives to around 800 years in a generation, compared to the modern life expectancies that aren't known to often exceed 120.

Mentions later that life spans are to be reduced to 120 (Catholic commentator saying if this reading is right, that was by degrees, not directly after Flood for all).

Genesis 5:2 Notes
Apparently they were all called Adam.

Sure. Adam as in Mister Adam. Then Eve is Mistress Adam.

Genesis 5:3 Notes
Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born.

Yes, that particular one.

Genesis 5:4 Notes
Yay, finally some girls are born. We're still left with the vexing problem of who were the mothers of all the children born prior to now.

Not very many mentioned as born prior to this. ALSO the verse gives us two informations, namely, A) "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years:" AND B) "and he begat sons and daughters:"

It is not as if "after he had begotten Seth" was a qualification of BOTH informations.

Genesis 5:5 Notes
And all that nine hundred and thirty years he never manages to pass down the essentials of enjoying such longevity (Maybe the Global flood did destroy it).

The general argument from apologists is that prior to the flood humanity had much longer life spans. The idea that before the Fall we had longer lifespans is plausible (in context at least), but why the flood took this nifty attribute away is not at all apparent.

Check the text. Later.

Genesis 5:5 Notes
There is no known correlation between the human lifespan and being around a lot of rain or water (apart from falling in and drowning, which has a very strong correlation).

Indeed, so much that some have said that "120 years" refer to the remaining lifespan for all except Noah and his family.

Genesis 5:5 Notes
Some have argued that there was a mistranslation of the Hebrew and this number actually represents 930 lunar months, which puts Adam's age at a far more plausible 75 or so. Unfortunately there are references to other people siring children at the tender age of 35 (which in lunar month terms is only three years), so this argument is weak.

Very weak, indeed.

Genesis 5:5 Notes
The most plausible explanation is probably simple "superhero" status - throughout history and in to the present day there has been a tendency to drastically exaggerate the attributes of mythic figures, from Hercules to Superman.

Very unlike Superman, Hercules seems to have a tangible connexion to later history. Spartan royalty descend from his grandsons, and in exile they had founded Pergamon.

How many recently independent states or recently constructed cities (wasn't there one in Brazil?) count Superman as father of their founder?

But generally speaking, pre-Flood man has a kind of superhero status compared to those born after Flood. Especially LONG after Flood.

Genesis 5:5 Notes
Also in case you forgot, Adam was supposed to die after eating from the tree of Good and Evil. Some apologists have argued that he did receive the assigned punishment, because he would have lived forever if he had not eaten the fruit and remained in the Garden of Eden. However if that is so, what was the tree of "Eternal Life" (the other tree mentioned in Genesis 2:9) for?

He would have lived forever, since He would have eaten of that tree.

He also died "same day" he had eaten the forbidden fruit. Namely same thousand years, since he died at only 930. There is a Psalm verse appropriate for this one.

Genesis 5:6 Notes
It took Seth this long to get his wife pregnant with his first son, Enos. Suggested explanations:

  • Seth receives really good abstinence education from God.
  • Seth has really advanced contraceptive technologies but the global flood destroyed it.
  • Seth is so unpopular with the ladies (which are probably his sisters or nieces anyway) that it take him this long to get a woman to like him enough to have sex with him.

Similar explanations apply for almost everyone in the lineage mentioned.

But if you're keeping track, Adam is 235 years old at this point.

Two explanations are not mentioned.

Enos is the seventh SON (after six sons and so many daughters) OR, pre-Flood people came into puberty much later than now.

Better ease for abstinence is also a very good point. If puberty was around the age of 100 years, why did Noah get his three sons at age 500?

Well, maybe he HAD to wait a few centuries with all iniquity going on. And in that case abstinence is an asset.

Btw, forget about HIS using contraceptive technologies (they existed and have existed to this day): they are a mark of iniquity and a Jewish legend about the pre-Flood world says there was a smaller Flood in which Mediterranean formed as punishment for THAT.

Whether it be true as fact, it is certainly true as morals. The godly lineage are not using such things and the Lambeth conference of 1930 is dead wrong in allowing that. Catholic Church has obviously condemned it.

Genesis 5:7 Notes
This is pretty much how the rest of Chapter Five is going to go. Feel free to skip to the end, everyone else does.

Er, no.

Not the apologist who notes that 800 years was a pretty common age before the Flood.

Not people keeping track on how many years after Creation of Adam people lived, and in what year Flood occurred or Christ was born (there are two / three versions of the text and St Jerome's chronology based on LXX has Flood come in 2200 - 2240? - after Creation).

Not Chuck Missler and Rob Skiba who make a translation of each name in this genealogy:

Hebrew  English
Adam  Man
Seth  Appointed
Enosh  Mortal
Kenan  Sorrow;
Mahalalel The Blessed God
Jared Shall come down
Enoch Teaching
Methuselah His death shall bring
Lamech The Despairing
Noah Rest, or comfort.

A Hidden Message: The Gospel in Genesis
by Chuck Missler

And not people interested in Henoch ... oh, it appears that the commentator actually didn't do that, didn't skip to the end:

Genesis 5:23 Notes
Unlike other pre-flood individuals mentioned by name, Enoch lasted only 400 years compared to the parents (and thus, Jared must have watched his son die but at least have a grandson.)

Note commenter commented before reading next verse.

Genesis 5:24 Notes
Enoch did not die. The Lord took him. This implies that Enoch is still alive in Heaven with God, making him the oldest living person named in the Bible.

Yep, and he's probably getting back, see Apocalypse 11. Most Latin Church Catholics identify them with Henoch and Elijah.*

Genesis 5:27 Notes
Methuselah is, besides the possible exception of Enoch, the longest living human in the bible, although it isn't explained why God was so ok with him living so long. The general idea is that he died either the year of the flood or a little while before.

Why was God ok with it? Well, it's still within the 1000-year post-Fall limit of human life.

Genesis 5:29 Notes
the curse is probably a reference to 3:17. Noah's name apparently means or shares a root with the word for rest.[2] It seems to me that basically the parents are saying oh good a child let's put him to work so we don't have to work as hard. In an era before child labor laws more kids meant more farm labor.

And should mean so.

Actually, the child labour laws were meant as a defense against putting children in HIGHLY unsuitable places such as down coal mines or chimneys.

Genesis 5:31 Notes
At this point, 1057 years passed since the birth of Adam, or 127 years since his death. Combined with at least 600 years that Noah took before the great flood, it basically requires squeezing most modern human history all since 2400 BCE if you take a simple guess that the Earth is only ~6014 years old (the current year + 4000).

Also of note is the age of which Lamech died - 777 years. It is parallel with Genesis 4:24, where Lamech notes that Cain was avenged sevenfold, and Lamech seventy-seven fold. Despite them being two different people, that name has an odd affinity for the number seven, and indicates that that age of death in multi-generational pre-history was purposely chosen by the author.

There is LOTS of not just pre-history, but pre-Greek and pre-Roman history that can do some squeezing and still be meaningful. Suppose carbon 14 levels are rising fast during 100 years, that will stretch carbon datings into tens of thousands.

(Yes, I did the maths on this, also using a "carbon date calculator" no longer on line to verify how many extra years a remains of organic type gets for each level of carbon 14 below 100%**)

Age chosen by author, well, yes. God punned on the boasting of the Cainite Lamech when deciding the lifespan of a very different other Lamech, the Sethite one. Or perhaps 777 shall be seen as young, a short life span for pre-Flood conditions. The Cainite Lamech shown as punished through punishment by proxy.

And God is author of events before being author of text, through Moses and whoever his sources were.

Genesis 5:32 Notes
Noah, one of the prophets, never manages to tell his followers (which should also be his offsprings/wives given the Global Flood) how to live for five hundred years, or even half as long. The goat definitely ate the secret and whoever kept the goat patched up the scripture in Genesis 6:3.

For those interested, the genealogy continues at Genesis 9:28

Ah, thanks for mentioning the chronological relevance of genealogies!

Genesis 6:3 Notes
The age limit is 120 years, but Genesis 11:10 and beyond still shows people lasting longer than that. A short life for humans, except when plot demands otherwise. Also, much more closely and much more provably, Jeanne Calment died after the age of 122.

As said, if 120 years is the new age limit, either it was gradually, or God made it different for Hebrews up to the time of Moses, who died at 120 precisely. Jeanne Calment probably got two years extra for being a good Catholic.

Genesis 6:4 Notes
See PZ Myers Pharyngula threads re.: Giants and Dwarfs(sic)

Translations other than the KJV have this differently. But based on the King James Only view that's what we're talking about here. ("Nephilim" is claimed by others to mean "fallen" - whatever that may mean in context - and is left untranslated in new English translations.)

I'd have liked to go to PZM and refute him. BUT when clicking, I don't get to the post.

Has it disappeared?

Or was it meant to be a link to a more general search from start? One link gives this:

Pharyngula : If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??
Posted by PZ Myers on August 9, 2006

His quote :
NOTE: If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??

His answer :
Man, the existence of pygmies and dwarfs has nothing to do with whether men were 15 feet tall 6000 years ago, and I had to laugh out loud. It’s an incredibly useful phrase that’s going to come in handy.

Ever wonder how the hell a moron like George W. Bush got elected? “If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??“

How can people be so gullible to believe the nonsense peddled by the Discovery Institute? “If you doubt this is possible, how is it there are PYGMIES + DWARFS??“

Sorrreee, but it seems PZM would have needed some more caffeine that day (I'll go down and take some myself, this beautiful day*** of Saint Teresita!).

How is it possible that PZM missed the implication : we are pygmies compared to Adam and Noah, and pygmies are pygmies compared to us who are already pygmies.

Apart from that, I think the nephelim were more gigantic than the rest. Though not as bad as in Book of Jasher or as in the non-Catholic books of Baruch (there is a Catholic book of Baruch and it mentions giants of old in a way clearly exluding Adam and Noah, but does not give any measure).

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Rosarium BMV

* All Catholics more or less agree Elijah is one of the two. There is less general agreement on the other one being Enoch.

** What Some of You are Thinking / Ce que certains de vous sont en train de penser

*** By now it is already Rosary Feast, I took this post in a few steps before getting it done. Thérèse of Child Jesus, 3.X, Rosary of the Blessed Virgin, 7.X. A holy person and a holy practise, which won a victory over Turks in Lepanto, since the Pope prayed for Don John of Austria.

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