Affichage des articles dont le libellé est haydock. Afficher tous les articles
Affichage des articles dont le libellé est haydock. Afficher tous les articles

dimanche 29 décembre 2024

Genre of Genesis


Dont ask me, ask an authority of the Church, like the Haydock comment:


THE BOOK OF GENESIS.
INTRODUCTION.
https://johnblood.gitlab.io/haydock/id326.html


The Hebrews now entitle all the Five Books of Moses, from the initial words, which originally were written like one continued word or verse; but the Septuagint have preferred to give the titles the most memorable occurrences of each work. On this occasion, the Creation of all things out of nothing, strikes us with peculiar force. We find a refutation of all the heathenish mythology, and of the world's eternity, which Aristotle endeavoured to establish. We behold the short reign of innocence, and the origin of sin and misery, the dispersion of nations, and the providence of God watching over his chosen people, till the death of Joseph, about the year 2369 (Usher) 2399 (Salien and Tirinus) B.C. 1631. We shall witness the same care in the other Books of Scripture, and adore his wisdom and goodness in preserving to himself faithful witnesses, and a true Holy Catholic Church, in all ages, even when the greatest corruption seemed to overspread the land. (Haydock)




This Book is so called from its treating of the Generation, that is, of the Creation and the beginning of the world. The Hebrews call it Bereshith, from the word with which it begins. It contains not only the History of the Creation of the World, but also an account of its progress during the space of 2369 years, that is, until the death of Joseph.



Father George Leo Haydock did not put it in parallel, but in opposition to pagan mythology. He takes the timespan (here given for Masoretic / Vulgate chronology, not LXX) as a literal timespan./HGL

samedi 17 août 2024

Is Armenia East of Babylonia?


I just on Quora crossed words with a presumed "Catholic" who consideres Genesis 11:1—9 as an etiological myth.

To document that this is not the traditional position, I turn to the Haydock comment.

Here is the comment to the first two verses:

Ver. 1. Speech. Probably Hebrew; in which language we have the most ancient book in the world, the work of Moses. This language has been preserved ever since, though with some alterations. Most of the oriental languages are but like dialects from it, as French, Italian, &c. are from Latin. The arguments which are brought to prove that other languages are more ancient, because the names of men, &c. have a proper significance in them as well as in Hebrew, do not invalidate the right of the latter. The most respectable authors have, therefore, always declared for it. (Haydock)

Ver. 2. The East: Armenia, which lies to the eastward of Babylonia, whither they directed their course in quest of provisions for themselves and cattle, being now grown pretty numerous. (Menochius*)


Let's check.

Yerevan 40°10′53″N 44°30′52″E
Babylon (as Classical Babylon) 32°32′33″N 44°25′16″E


Armenia seems to be lying North, not East of it, N to S. Is sth else meant?

Neo-Babylonian Empire involved lands as far North-West as big portions of Assyria. So, they would technically (from a pov of the second half of the First Millennium BC) be Babylonia as well. Let's try again:

Yerevan 40°10′53″N 44°30′52″E
Edessa 37°09′N 38°48′E


NE to SW. Better.

Or we could take Turkish Armenia:

Cizre 37.332°N 42.187°E
Edessa 37°09′N 38°48′E


E to W. Perfect.

I take it:
  • Menochius was no ace in ANE geography;
  • he relied on older sources;
  • those older sources in their turn relied on limits where Babylonia encompasses Edessa (i e, they are posterior to the fall of Assyria, which fell under Babylonia).


Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Sts Paul and Juliana
17.VIII.2024

Ptolemaide, in Palaestina, passio sanctorum Martyrum Pauli, ejusque sororis Julianae Virginis; qui ambo, sub Aureliano Imperatore, cum in Christi confessione permanerent immobiles, jussi sunt variis et dirissimis tormentis affligi ac tandem capite obtruncari.

PS, when Menochius spoke of "Armenia" in relation to Genesis 8 (verse 4 has Requievitque arca mense septimo, vigesimo septimo die mensis, super montes Armeniae) and then Genesis 11 (he assumed "they" who were removing from the East were doing so from the landing place, so do I), he was anachronistically naming the mountain region Urartu / Ararat after its later name, he didn't imagine that the Armenian kingdom had already been established. Like if you were saying "Mid South Iraq" about Sumer or "Turkey-Syria-Iraq" about Mesopotamia / Sennaar. By the way, he could also have considered that Babel was more the region of Edessa than that of Baghdad, which I would agree with./HGL

* Menochius, see wiki:

Giovanni Stefano Menochio, 9 December 1575 - 4 February 1655 (aged 79), was an Italian Jesuit biblical scholar.

dimanche 5 mai 2024

Sylvester Joseph Hunter on Genesis, Henry Morris on 15 Cubits


I am happy to agree with people, when possible.

Item one, Sylvester Joseph Hunter on Genesis (or how Moses knew about it).

Cases where a Book was written in the light of the information which the writer already possesses from natural sources, without special research, are found in the Epistles, and also apparently in the instance of Genesis. Moses would seem to have put into writing the traditions that had been preserved, perhaps in writing or perhaps in the memory of the people, and it is probable that the young children were taught the story by their parents, in the way in which it was ordered that the remembrance of the deliverance from Egypt should be kept alive. (Exodus xii. 26, 27.) The history of the Creation cannot have been known except by revelation; but there is no reason to suppose that this revelation was made to Moses. More probably it was made to Adam, and became known to Moses through human sources. When we speak thus of history having come down to Moses by tradition, we do not mean to imply that there was any special guarantee that the whole of this traditional history should be preserved free from corruption; the case is not like that of the Tradition by which the knowledge of the Christian Revelation is preserved, free from admixture of error, in the Church ; it is enough that God's providence preserved Moses from being misled by any errors that may have crept into the current account.


pp 192,193, Outlines of dogmatic theology,
Sylvester Joseph Hunter 1895, New York : Benziger Brothers
https://archive.org/details/outlinesofdogmat01hunt/page/192/mode/2up


I totally agree that Moses had the Genesis 3 account from Adam and the Genesis 50 account from some son of Joseph, or other survivor, perhaps Levi or his son Caath. Via appropriate numbers of intermediates.

But I am nonplussed by this phrase:

we do not mean to imply that there was any special guarantee that the whole of this traditional history should be preserved free from corruption


So, was there infallibility in the Patriarchal Church?

The Catholic Church can infallibly claim that St. George was a martyr. But prior to Moses, Abraham could not infallibly claim Shem, Ham and Japheth as the sole male Flood survivors of their generation?

I think infallibility was a prerogative of all successive churches, Angelic, Edenic, Patriarcal, Jewish and finally Catholic. Anything that Moses could find in all his sources, not just some, would have been perfectly preserved, and therefore true, no need to cull it.

Some terms may have meant different things from what the Hebrew people in Moses' time imagined them to be, but not from what the terms strictly imply. Nor were any of them abused, negated when they should have been affirmed or affirmed when they should have been negated.

I have often cited Father George Leo Haydock's last comment on Genesis 3, which does not make this blunder, and I only disagree on the exact number of minimal overlaps of generations. On the other hand I think, Abraham received chapters 1 to 11 or 2 to 11 (if contrary to Hunter's view the creation days were revealed to Moses rather than Adam, or re-revealed to Moses after the tradition had lost them) and no more than that orally, but from chapter 12 on his scribes could write things that were preserved in the Beduin tribe from his day to the settling in Egypt, with appropriate copies whenever the tribe divided. And even with LXX chronology, Abraham is the sixth, which is even better than Moses being the eighth, in minimal overlaps.* Alternatively, Serug could have had access to, and his son and grandson Nahor and Terah have deprived him of, books, he could have resumed them from memory, so that his transmission to Abraham was the only one that happened orally. Either way, the first chapters are made so that they are well suited for oral transmission. Hence, no real reason why the tradition would have been corrupted.

Item two, Henry Morris on 15 Cubits

The phrase “fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail” does not mean that the Flood was only fifteen cubits (22 feet) deep, for the phrase is qualified by the one which immediately follows: “and the mountains were covered.” Nor does it necessarily mean that the mountains were covered to a depth of only fifteen cubits, for this would require that all antediluvian mountains be exactly the same altitude. 3 The true meaning of the phrase is to be found in comparing it with Genesis 6:15, where we are told that the height of the Ark was thirty cubits. Nearly all commentators agree that the phrase “fifteen cubits” in 7:20 must therefore refer to the draught of the Ark. In other words, the Ark sank into the water to a depth of fifteen cubits (just one-half of its total height) when fully-laden.


THE GENESIS FLOOD
The Biblical Record and Its Scientific Implications
by JOHN C. WHITCOMB, JR., Th.D.** and HENRY M. MORRIS, Ph. D. ***
https://www.truth-defined.com/PDFs/THE%20GENESIS%20FLOOD.pdf


In fact, I'd go one further, and say, the Ark was built on the highest one of the mountains, and after 40 days, Noah knew that the water was that high, because that's when the Ark started floating instead of sitting on a mountain top.

I am somewhat taken aback by how much Whitcomb and Morris was a short essay and a pioneering text. Many of the technical solutions Young Earth Creationists take for granted by now or even consider as already refuted, are totally lacking. It is a very tightly knitted argument on height of water, dimensions of the Ark, pre-Flood human population AND reasons against a limited Flood. Here is a gem in this venue, first he cites Arthur C. Custance:

It would require real energy and faith to follow Noah’s example and build other Arks, but it would have required neither of these to pack up a few things. and migrate. There is nothing that Noah could have done to stop them except by disappearing very secretly. Such a departure could hardly act as the kind of warning that the deliberate 10 construction of the Ark could have done. And the inspiration for this undertaking was given to Noah by leaving him in ignorance of the exact limits of the Flood. He was assured that all mankind would be destroyed, and probably supposed that the Flood would therefore be universal. This supposition may have been quite essential for him.

[Arthur C. Custance, The Extent of the Flood: Doorway Papers #41 (Ottawa: Published by the author, 1958),] p. 18. Custance feels that the Ark was not overly large (see above, p. 10) and that it did not take over a century to build. The 120 years of Gen. 6:3, in his opinion, refers to man’s future life-span. But where is the evidence that man’s life span after the Flood was to be 120 years? Many men lived much longer than this (11:11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25; 25:7; 35:28; 47:9). See [Alexander Heidel, The Gilgamesh Epic and Old Testament Parallels (2nd Ed.; Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1949),] p. 230, and [H. C. Leupold, Exposition of Genesis (Columbus: The Wartburg Press, 1942),] pp. 256-257.


Then he answers (still page 10), here:

But how can one read the Flood account of Genesis 6-9 with close attention and then arrive at the conclusion that the Ark was built merely to warn the ungodly, and not mainly to save the occupants of the Ark from death by drowning? And how can we exonerate God Himself from the charge of deception, if we say that He led Noah to believe that the Flood would be universal, in order to encourage him to work on the Ark, when He knew all the time that it would not be universal?


Meanwhile, when I look at Henry Morris, I see a reference to San Diego. When Karl Keating one day started to make replies, first on the Eucharist, then on other topics, it was in San Diego, so presumably the very same Congregation of Henry Morris. This could partly explain, though not fully excuse, his view in which Fundamentalist exegesis of for instance Genesis is linked to Anti-Catholicism.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
V LD after Easter
5.V.2024

* Minimal overlaps on my view:

  1. Adam — Mahalaleel
  2. Mahalaleel — Noah
  3. Noah — Shem
  4. Shem — Eber
  5. Eber — Serug
  6. Serug — Abraham


Abraham to Moses : writing.

Creation vs. Evolution : LXX without II Cainan
Published by Hans Georg Lundahl 04:36 Mon 16 Dec 2019
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2019/12/lxx-without-ii-cainan.html


** JOHN C. WHITCOMB, JR., Th.D.
Professor of Old Testament, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana

*** HENRY M. MORRIS, Ph. D.
Director of the Institute of Creation Research Vice-President of Christian Heritage College, San Diego, California

vendredi 2 février 2024

Does Genesis 1 through 11 have an author prior to Moses?


Does Genesis 1 through 11 have an author prior to Moses? · Whoever the "Astute Observer" was — Science and Factually Exact Are Not the Same · Should One NOT Read Donald J. Wiseman? · For Anyone Disputing the Relevance of Genesis 5 and 11, the Genealogy of Matthew is a Go To

I am obviously not even envisaging JEPD as potentially true, that's the kind of madness people abuse their academic personnel for when they resolutely turn their back on the obvious and usually also true answer.

The other day, I read how in 1850, the rotation of the earth had been proven. No, it hadn't. The supposals used for taking Foucault's Pendulum (1851, not 1850) and three experiments in falling bodies (Benzenberg, Reich and before the Guilielmini, all three before 1850) as proof for this involve the unproven assumption, now abandoned by modern physics, that space is empty coordinates. I actually read that Brahe had been disproven. No. Even with rotation of the earth, unproven and counterintuitive as it is, the Earth could still have been direct centre for Moon, Sun, Fix-Stars and have the Sun as moving epicentre for "planets" (other than Sun and Moon, and including asteroids and comets, and with Titan or Io having one moving epicentre more, namely Saturn and Jupiter). The assumption involved in "disproving" this is, either a) God hates spirograph patterns, thinks they are too ugly for heaven, even in orbits (Copernicus' take), or b) this can't be since the movements are too complex for gravity and inertia, and God and angels either don't exist or wouldn't want to move either heaven or heavenly bodies.

The point is not that I'm an expert in astronomy. I'm hardly even an amateur. The point is, the assumptions made by the experts are published and known, and can therefore be criticised by non-experts, including myself.

Dito for the JEPD hypothesis. One of the assumptions, never stated and indeed never even admitted, so absurd is it, is "if Jews, Samaritans and Christians believed it was written by Moses, then therefore Moses can't have written it, such traditions of a religion are never right." This is a fairly open admission of animosity towards the God of the Old Testament, and a scholar who presents himself as serving a university faculty in theology usually wouldn't want to alienate all Church institutions by stating "we are Marcionites or Albigensians here, Jews and Catholics are not welcome" — but another one is pretty absurd too. It's that if two names for God, JHVH (Adonai) and Elohim, occur in different places of a text, it's really two conflated texts, one of the original authors using JHVH (Adonai) and the other using Elohim. A single author varying his names for God is seemingly not even on the list. A third is, if something markedly differs from Babylonian theology, while parallelling a Babylonian narratives (Flood section of the Gilgamesh Epic or Enuma Elish or Sumerian King List), the Babylonian narrative was naively taken over as overall narrative, the theological differences are the polemics against Babylonian theology, and that polemics is all there is of the real message of the Hebrew author ... who must obviously have been posterior to when Hebrews had their first admittedly welldocumented (i e in non-Hebrew sources) encounters with Babylonians. Both people inheriting the story that Noah had to tell, and his three sons had to tell, and the Babylonians being the people twisting history for purposes of adapting it to bad theology (like probably even eliminating a first human couple), somehow also not on the list.

There is a very different approach, which is not very often expressed in traditional Catholic scholarship, neither very much among today's Young Earth Creationists, at least not the ones I have a look on. The Hebrews knew nothing at all or had contradictory views about Henoch the son of Jared. On this view, not my view. Then Moses, precisely as God spoke to him and said He would send an angel before the people, Exodus 33, also received Genesis 4 and 5 like that. And while we are at it, the Hebrews didn't even need to go through the Red Sea, and remember it, it's sufficient that God spoke to Moses and told him to write the narrative in Exodus 14 and they somehow believed him. This is a parodic version of one idea about how Divine Inspiration for Scripture works, taken over from an idea of the Quran, when Mohammed is only dictating the Quran when "Allah" speaks to him, and the rest, the Al-Sīra al-Nabawiyya, for instance, is, venerable, but lower than what God dictated. To us, history which is in the Bible is not lower than what God dictated, even if it is not dictated this way. We can say God chose the words, but God did not take away natural sources, like prior histories or testimonies, He gave the hagiographer good and infallible judgement about them, and a correct choice of words.

So, given that Moses did the Exodus 430 years after God had given his promise to Abraham (and some would say more, claiming erroneously the 430 years started when Jacob went to Egypt and was received by his son Joseph, but the 430 years started pretty much right away, Abraham was living as an immigrant, certainly an immigrant Beduin with a large tribe, but an immigrant none-the-less), Abraham was not in a position to speak to Moses. And given that the Flood happened 292, 942 or 1070 years before Abraham was even born, depending on text, Moses could not have a chat with Noah either. So, given divine dictation was not Moses' (sole) source of knowledge, and given that contemporaneous testimony was no longer contemporaneous when Moses wrote, what happened?

P. J. Wiseman, like I. M. Kikawada and A. Quinn, will present a case for the more traditional view of the Book of Genesis against JEDP theory, though with a twist. Moses substantially the author of the Pentateuch, was not properly speaking the author of Genesis, but its editor.


I just cited:
Genesis, a finely unified tapestry
by Damien F. Mackey (on Academia)
https://www.academia.edu/114367942/Genesis_a_finely_unified_tapestry


So, Damien Mackey is attempting to give a review of three scholars that say Moses had sources. I agree on that point, if not on all the other ones. Here is one I don't agree on:

Perhaps somewhat more surprisingly, the same can basically be said for the fundamentalist biblical approach, ridiculed by Kikawada and Quinn as reactionary.

For although those, such as the Creationists for instance, might give the impression of their complete dedication to uncovering the truths of the Bible - and I am sure that that is generally their sincere intention - they, too, read the text from a modern, generally Westernised, scientific point of view. In fact one astute commentator has rightly described Creationism as a form of modernism, attempting to reduce Genesis to science.


Damien Mackey is, if so, very far from à jour with current Creationist literature. We regard Genesis, not as true systematic science, but as true, chronological, sequence of events history. When I say "history" and not "historiography", some may object that it's not historic research conducted in the way that modern scholars conduct historic research. It's a very ancient historiography. Yes, but history the way that modern scholars conduct historic research is a very modern historiography. History primarily, throughout history, means what certain modern historians would call historiography.

I don't think modern historians are to be confused with scientists, and the ones doing so are not us Creationists, it's the ones pretending we confuse Genesis with science, when in fact we don't.

In fact, sorry, Damien, the paper just shown is an 18 minute read, and I'm trying to get this post finished, I may return to the 18 minute read later.

First, "with a twist ... not properly speaking the author of Genesis, but its editor." The question is, is this even a twist on the traditional view or is it the traditional view? Let's compare the idea that Samuel was the author of Judges:

This Book is called Judges, because it contains the history of what passed under the government of the judges, who ruled Israel before they had kings. The writer of it, according to the more general opinion, was the prophet Samuel. (Challoner)

Some are of opinion, that the judges might have each left records of their respective administrations, (Menochius) which might be put in order by Samuel. The author of this book seems to have lived under the reign of Saul, before David had expelled the Jebusites, chap. xviii. 31. (Du Hamel)


Haydock's Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition. JUDGES - Introduction
https://johnblood.gitlab.io/haydock/id564.html


Basically, when we say that Samuel is author of Judges, we mean that Samuel is in some sense final editor of Judges.

Before we return to Genesis, we'll take a look at Judges. The book starts after the death of Joshua, and Samuel lived 100's of years later. Judges is basically a work of cumulative narration and cumulative authorship. A diary has single authorship, but cumulative narration. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle has cumulative narration, but through cumulative authorship. I believe Judges is essentially this kind of book. With Samuel as final editor.

Now, this brings up the question, was there a kind of summing up within the book of Genesis, for instance 1 to 11 or 2 to 11, prior to Moses?

Here I will first cite Haydock:

Concerning the transactions of these early times, parents would no doubt be careful to instruct their children, by word of mouth, before any of the Scriptures were written; and Moses might derive much information from the same source, as a very few persons formed the chain of tradition, when they lived so many hundred years. Adam would converse with Mathusalem, who knew Sem, as the latter lived in the days of Abram. Isaac, Joseph, and Amram, the father of Moses, were contemporaries: so that seven persons might keep up the memory of things which had happened 2500 years before. But to entitle these accounts to absolute authority, the inspiration of God intervenes; and thus we are convinced, that no word of sacred writers can be questioned. (Haydock)


Haydock's etc. GENESIS - Chapter 3
https://johnblood.gitlab.io/haydock/id329.html


So, he believed in oral tradition of each event (at the very least for the Genesis 3 event) up to the time of Moses, who relied (and was right in relying) on his family tradition.

I take a somewhat different approach.

Who Wrote Genesis? Are the Toledoth Colophons?
by Charles V Taylor, M.A., Ph.D., PGCE, LRAM, FIL, Cert. Theol. | This article is from
Journal of Creation 8(2):204–211, August 1994
https://creation.com/who-wrote-genesis-are-the-toledoth-colophons


Charles Taylor, and lots of Creationists after him, have taken the view, each of the patriarchs wrote, on a physical material. Again, Moses stringed the work together.

I take a view somewhat intermediate between Father Haydock and Charles V Taylor.

Oral tradition could have taken place all along the way up to Abraham. Or the tradition was written, and lost, and orally transmitted to Abraham. The reason why I believe the chapters up to 11 that have human observers implied for the events were orally transmitted to Abraham is, they are different, they are shorter, while later chapters of Genesis are more prolix. Why is that important? Because shortness is a very good way to keep a text memorisable, without written support. African Griots and Homeric aoidoi can memorise a list (Ship Catalogue and the Genealogy of Kunta Kinte existed orally, before taken down by the sons of Peisistratus or by Alex Haley). But the reason they can do it well is, each item in the list is, within that list, memorised as an item, a sentence, not several paragraphs. And the narratives, just as much as table of nations (Genesis 10) or as genealogies in Genesis 5 or 11 or the unchronological one in Genesis 4, are also short. We don't get dialogues between God and a patriarch about what to do in the face of another patriarch, as later on (Jacob and Laban). Hence, sufficiently few necessary intermediates (plus as many as possible redundant ones) plus shortness of text, makes a text transmittable.

Genesis 3 (as mentioned), could have been transmitted to Abraham this way, all the way from Adam and Eve. Or they could have been written down, Sarug had long time access to the books, but they were taken away when his son and grandson became idolaters, so, he had to transmit it to Abraham from memory.

Either way, from Abraham on to the migration to Egypt, the Beduin tribe that became the Ancient People of God could transport the very short text mass on camel back, and from Joseph's arrival to power and on, the camel back archives and the narrative of Joseph's own misfortunes and fortune could be restored in Goshen. This is the kind of material that Moses dealt with. It's rationally speaking at the very least, even if we do not bring Divine inspiration into the picture, a roughly speaking reliable historiography of events. The alternatives this contradicts are not better or more reliable historiography (including for Egypt), it's not science that's as good as Coulombe's law or Newtons III Law of Movement, its reconstruction and pseudo-science, on level with the infamous JEPD theory.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
Candlemass
2.II.2024

jeudi 30 novembre 2023

Haydock Bible, and Catholic Young Earth Creationism


When Protestant Young Earthers are asked to explain why so many have heard of Old Earth Creationism, they pick out Darby and the Scofield Bible.

The influence of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882), and the Scofield Reference Bible (1909, 1917), led many members of the Plymouth Brethren movement to adopt belief in old-earth creation, as opposed to young-earth creation, or theistic evolution. The preferred old-earth view was the gap theory, with less willingness to accept belief in pre-Adamic races, or the day-age position.

John Nelson Darby, the Scofield Reference Bible, and the rise of old-earth creationism
by Andrew Sibley | This article is from
Journal of Creation 36(3):123–128, December 2022
https://creation.com/darby-and-scofield-bible


Catholics in France were on the bridge between Day-Age (Fulcran Vigouroux) and Young Earth (P. Laurent and A. Saignet).

Catholics in England between Gap Theory (Cardinal Wiseman) and Young Earth (see below).

Catholics in Germany and Austria has pretty equal preferences for Young Earth (C. F. Keil, J. E. Veith, A. Bosizio, A. Trissl, G. J. Burg) and he other too.

I think this extended into Italy, unless it was a more pure Young Earth preference (V. M. Gatti).

Those deviating from Young Earth were pretty much in the same area as the episcopates which at Vatican II pressed for changes. Here's* a little list:

Ulm, Lemgo, Edinburgh, Paris, London, Petit-Montrouge, Brunswick, Leipzig, Vienna, Mainz, Munich, Regensburg, Trier, Quedlinburg, Louvain, Kœnigsberg, Freiburg im Breisgau, Frankfurt am Main, Lyon, Rouen, Rodez, Clermont-Ferrant, Ghent, Brussels, Madrid (twice), Munster, New York (once), Florence (once), Rome (once), Siena (once), Valladolid (once), Brixen, Barcelona (once ), Steyl, Alessandria (once), Paderborn, Bonn, Linz, Friborg (Switzerland), Geneva, Graz, Cologne, Stuttgart, Berlin, Profnitz.


Whichever the solution, 19th C. Roman Catholic orthodoxy felt like the Haydock Bible that genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 and therefore the spectrum of Biblical chronologies deserved at least quasi-integrity from the Creation of Adam on.

Both United Kingdom (back then extending over Ireland too) with Commonwealth and the US used an edition of Douay Rheims (NT published 1582, OT published 1609–1610) in a revision by Bishop Challoner (Revised in 1749, 1750, and 1752 by Richard Challoner (DRC)). One very famous edition of it was probably the model of the Scofield Bible. I mean of course the Haydock Bible.

As a sample of how it would** have looked, I'll give you first and last verses of Genesis 3, and after that footnotes, which are actually below the Bible text, as are, when given, the Ussher years.

Ver. 1. Why hath God? Hebrew, "Indeed hath God, &c." as if the serpent had overheard Eve arguing with herself, about God's prohibition, with a sort of displeasure and presumption. St. Augustine thinks, she had given some entrance to these passions, and the love of her own power, and hence gave credit to the words of the serpent, de Gen. ad lit. xi. 30. 1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the earth which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman: Why hath God commanded you, that you should not eat of every tree of paradise?
 
She might not know or reflect that the serpent could not reason thus, naturally; and she had as yet, no idea or dread of the devil. (Lombard, 2 Dist. 21.) This old serpent entered into the most subtle of creatures, and either by very expressive signs, or by the motion of the serpent's tongue, held this delusive dialogue with Eve. Moses relates what happened exteriorily; but from many expressions, and from the curse, ver. 15, he sufficiently indicates, that an evil spirit was the latent actor. (Haydock) --- Of every tree. Satan perverts the word of God, giving it an ambiguous turn: in doing which, he has set heretics a pattern, which they follow. (Menochius)
 
Ver. 24. Cherubims. Angels of the highest order, and of a very complex figure, unlike any one living creature. Theodoret supposes that God forced Adam to retire from that once charming abode, by the apparition of hideous spectres. The devils were also hindered from coming hither, lest they should pluck the fruit of the tree of life, and by promising immortality, should attract men to their service. 24 And he cast out Adam: and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
 
The flaming sword, might be a fire rising out of the earth, of which Grotius thinks the pits, near Babylon, are still vestiges. These dreadful indications of the divine wrath would probably disappear, when Paradise had lost its superior beauty, and became confounded with the surrounding countries --- Thus we have seen how rapidly Moses describes the creation of all things, the fall of man, and the promised redemption. But in these few lines, we discover a solution of the many difficulties which have perplexed the learned, respecting these most important subjects. We know that the world is not the effect of chance, but created and governed by divine Providence. We are no longer at a loss to explain the surprising contrast of good and evil, observable in the same man. When we have attentively considered the Old Adam and the New[New Adam, Jesus Christ], we find a clue to lead us through all the labyrinths of our Holy Religion. We could wish, perhaps, for a greater detail in Moses, but he left the rest to be supplied by tradition. He has thrown light enough upon the subjects, to guide the well-disposed, and has left sufficient darkness to humble and to confound the self-conceited and wicked, who love darkness rather than the light. (Calmet) --- Concerning the transactions of these early times, parents would no doubt be careful to instruct their children, by word of mouth, before any of the Scriptures were written; and Moses might derive much information from the same source, as a very few persons formed the chain of tradition, when they lived so many hundred years. Adam would converse with Mathusalem, who knew Sem, as the latter lived in the days of Abram. Isaac, Joseph, and Amram, the father of Moses, were contemporaries: so that seven persons might keep up the memory of things which had happened 2500 years before. But to entitle these accounts to absolute authority, the inspiration of God intervenes; and thus we are convinced, that no word of sacred writers can be questioned. (Haydock)
 
4: 2 Corinthians xi. 3.

6: Ecclesiasticus xxv. 33.; 1 Timothy ii. 14.

14: Isaias lxv. 25.; Micheas vii. 17.; Isaias xlix. 23.; Psalm lxxii. 9.
 15: Apocalypse xii.; Genesis xlix. 17.; 1 Corinthians xiv. 34.

19: Genesis xviii. 27.

20: Psalms cii. 14. and xxii.[xxi.?] 16.; Ecclesiastes vii. 12.[xii. 7.?]


So, it would be ridiculous if a Catholic, having failed to link my Young Earth Creationism to the Watchtower Society (who are Day-Agers, basically) tried to link it now to Darby.

We Catholics have no reason to tell Protestants (even as gentle ones as Andrew Sibley) that Young Earth Creationism is theirs.

Our English reference Bible is clearly more Young Earth than their Scofield, if you go to GENESIS - Chapter 1 and see for yourself that neither verse 2 nor "first day" and so on are marked out in any Old Earth manner. It may of course have helped that George Leo Haydock commented and his brother Thomas got re-published in 1859, fifty years before the Scofield Bible (1909). Thomas first published in 1811—1823.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Andrew, Apostle and Martyr
30.XI.2023

Apud Patras, in Achaja, natalis sancti Andreae Apostoli, qui in Thracia et Scythia sacrum Christi Evangelium praedicavit. Is, ab Aegea Proconsule comprehensus, primum in carcere clausus est, deinde gravissime caesus, ad ultimum suspensus in cruce, in ea populum docens biduo supervixit; et, rogato Domino ne eum sineret de cruce deponi, circumdatus est magno splendore de caelo, et, abscedente postmodum lumine, emisit spiritum.

* Previously (as the list of Young Earth authors) given in:

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Les Prédécesseurs catholiques de Henry Morris (jusqu'à 1920)
https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2019/11/les-predecesseurs-catholiques-de-henry.html


** I had to change the html, so it is no longer two columns all through, but the left hand column is on this page extended to full page width below the right hand column Bible verse. Otherwise, the table would have looked hopelessly narrow on the far right with the actual Bible text.

vendredi 8 septembre 2023

Barnes and Haydock Have a Thing or Two in Common


Theoretic Demography Limits · Holy Koolaid Pretended Flood to Sodom Chronology Excludes a Sodom or Gomorrah of Half a Million People · Barnes and Haydock Have a Thing or Two in Common

Barnes was unfortunately presbyterian, so didn't have apostolic succession, unlike George Leo Haydock, a real priest, but here is from his — Barnes' — view on Genesis 11.

The age of puberty in the Hebrew affords more scope for the increase of population than that in the other texts. For if a man begin to have a family at thirty, it is likely to be larger than if he began a hundred years later and only lived the same number of years altogether. Now the Hebrew and Samaritan agree generally, against the Septuagint, in the total years of life; and in two instances, Heber and Terah, the Samaritan has even a less number than the Hebrew. It is to be remembered, also, that the number of generations is the same in every case. Hence, in all human probability the Hebrew age of paternity will give the greater number of inhabitants to the world in the age of Abram. If we take the moderate average of five pairs for each family, we shall have for the estimated population 4 X 5(to the 9th power) pairs, or 15,625,000 souls. This number is amply sufficient for all the kingdoms that were in existence in the time of Abram. If we defer the time of becoming a father for a whole century, we shall certainly diminish, rather than increase, the chance of his having so large a family, and thereby the probability of such a population on the earth in the tenth generation from Noah.


If I want to defend the LXX, how about saying ... Heber was not the oldest son of Shelah, Shelah not the oldest son of Arphachsad (or Kenan II as son of Arphachsad), but more like "the seventh son of a seventh son" ... or, Shelah and Heber, if not Arphachsad, were delayed in marriage, precisely as it is inconceivable Noah reached puberty only at age 500. Or both.

But the point is not whether Barnes is right or wrong in his conclusion.

The point is, the reasoning clearly supposes that the data about generations and ages is accurately portrayed in one of the text versions, and therefore in the autograph text.

Here is Haydock on Genesis 3:

Concerning the transactions of these early times, parents would no doubt be careful to instruct their children, by word of mouth, before any of the Scriptures were written; and Moses might derive much information from the same source, as a very few persons formed the chain of tradition, when they lived so many hundred years. Adam would converse with Mathusalem, who knew Sem, as the latter lived in the days of Abram. Isaac, Joseph, and Amram, the father of Moses, were contemporaries: so that seven persons might keep up the memory of things which had happened 2500 years before. But to entitle these accounts to absolute authority, the inspiration of God intervenes; and thus we are convinced, that no word of sacred writers can be questioned. (Haydock)


Again, the point is not that Haydock is right on the specific number of minimal overlaps between Adam and Moses, again, as a defender of LXX chronology, I disagree.

But the point is, his reasoning also presupposes that the data about ages and generations is accurately portrayed in one of the text versions, and therefore in the first autograph of the hagiographer (unless he made a correction before sharing or as soon as getting corrected when sharing).

Barnes gives a list of years from creation in which the call of Abraham occurred, taken from Genesis 5 and 11. They vary from Anno Mundi 2078 to Anno Mundi 3564. But he, like Haydock, would have felt it as totally absurd to try to multiply either the total or one of the two chapters with ten to account for "unmentioned intermediates" ... to Haydock this would have been betraying the historic credibility of Genesis 3. To Barnes, it would have made the calculation about demographics totally superfluous.

As Barnes touches on post-Flood demographics, I will link back to two earlier posts here that include or concentrate on the issue — would there have been enough people for Babel or for the Kingdom's in Abraham's time?

Yes, there would.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Nativity of the Blessed Virgin
8.IX.2023

vendredi 28 novembre 2014

Natural Selection - Observations on an Issue among Creationists, and on Duty of Disclaimers in Diverse Issues

I intro
There are two major things to be considered:

  • 1) is the process really there?

  • 2)is "selection by nature" a proper wording?


II
Now, the latter first.

The ‘personification of nature’ claim is simply a hyperliteralistic misunderstanding of a phrase, and a failure to understand that language is defined by usage. The creationists who first proposed NS and Darwinists who followed them never intended it to mean anything cognitive by nature. So we can’t blame the evolutionists for any misunderstandings. This is easy to document.


It is funny, that the people whom CMI/in this article Jonathan Sarfati/ praise as "creationists" (and thus on their own camp) have at other times been called "old earth compromisers" and "species fixicists" and been shoved off as part of the pre-Darwin set up for Darwinism when countering the argument that Darwin was supposed to have been a Bible believing Christian up to his supposed discovery.

Now, making disclaimers is indeed one way to avoid responsability for misunderstandings.

Suppose someone had decided to take me poor sinner for either "Jesus come back on earth" (when we know he shall return on the clouds) or "legal Messiah of the Jews" (when we Christians know Jesus is still alive since His resurrection), and I made a disclaimer (as I have done anyway, just in case, some have acted in ways that were probably either that or testing if I was a lunatic who thought that - not meaning my not thinking it guarantees they won't take me for that on basically baseless excuses), "no, I am a Christian, I know that Jesus is the Right King of the Jews and I know Jesus is not coming back to live a life on Earth as before, but on the clouds", one might either think I had done enough, or blame me for the misunderstanding if I did not repeat the disclaimer often enough or loud enough. Or one might blame me if what I was trying to do was succeeding better because others misunderstood, so that my disclaimers were half hearted. And I might reply that those who don't want to read such disclaimers were the same guys who don't want my blogs to be read anyway, and who make rumours (about Messianity or about madness) about me so as to exclude readers from my blogs. Their fault not mine. Btw, my clothes are ripping apart, so I am in a way fulfilling the obligation (if still such!) to tear my clothes.

But this latter point brings me to one about Evolutionists: are they not both profiting (by the form Evolutionism takes in the popular mind) from undue support and (by forgetting their disclaimers when it suits them) fooling themselves despite all their disclaimers?

There is such a thing as admitting something half of the time and forgetting it half of the time. Like forgetting when arguing from it (I never argue from a supposition I am Messiah, and I never argue from a supposition I am mad, when writing), but admitting whenever challenged on the point. It is a form of hypocrisy.

Guliuzza may be perfectly right that Darwinists are really attributing a kind of personal creativity to "nature" by the use of this word.

I met a German who had grown up in East Germany (the Communist State, where Dia-Mat was taught in all schools) who considered Darwin had shown us that Gaia - mother Earth - was developing us. Dawkins in The Greatest Show on Earth is very obviously attributing more success to "natural selection" in getting a needed result than to "breeders' selection" in getting a consciously wanted result. How can I convince myself he is not fooling himself, by forgetting any admission he or others may have made? For my part, I can't. I suspect he's a thinly disguised Pantheist.

However, despite the evolutionists’ disclaimers, should we be concerned by a term that even figuratively personifies nature? Actually, scientists do that all the time without any problems. For example, pharmacists might warn about ‘light-sensitive’ medicine that should be stored away from light. Is this really claiming that medicine is literally sentient? According to Guliuzza and some of his colleagues, we must logically say yes.


The day when the public starts believing the medicine will shout at them when light is harming their medical properties, i e the day when the metaphor starts to make people attribute a causality to them which non-sentient objects naturally cannot have, I will take the parallel seriously. I don't expect this day will be tomorrow. Nor the day after. Perhaps they will invent medicine that discolours or changes taste if exposed to light, and if so the user has to know how it should look and taste like. We'll see.

Now, here is where Jonathan Sarfati makes an assumption. Namely that Bible itself uses personification in a metaphoric sense.

As a final observation, it’s rather strange to claim that personification of nature is anti-biblical, when the Bible contains passages like “the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands” (Isaiah 55:12), unless of course the Bible is anti-biblical.


The idea that "natural selection" is anti-biblical may have other grounds than it being a metaphoric personification. For instance that it is a misleading such - as said - or for other reasons, I will come back to. But Jonathan Sarfati seems to be no Narnia fan or if such at least very confident that Narnian things "don't happen in our universe," if he takes it for granted that Isaiah 55:12 or rivers clapping hands or stars singing are just metaphors.

Haydock, Isaias 55:
http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id1275.html


12 For you shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall sing praise before you, and all the trees of the country shall clap their hands.

13 Instead of the shrub, shall come up the fir-tree, and instead of the nettle, shall come up the myrtle-tree: and the Lord shall be named for an everlasting sign, that shall not be taken away.


Ver. 12. Peace, by strangers, chap. xlix. 22. --- Hands, for joy. (Calmet) --- Ipsa sonant arbusta Deus Deus ille, Menacla. (Virgil, Eclogues v.)

Ver. 13. Myrtle-tree. Instead of the wicked, the just shall be seen. (Chaldean) --- Away. The conversion and sanctity of the Gentiles shall be a trophy to the Lord. (Menochius)


So Calmet thought the trees clap hands for joy? He feels it necessary to comment on "plaudent manu" as "for joy", but not to point out that trees whether clapping hands or being joyful is a metaphoric personification? And what about the reference to Eclogues v? It is a dialogue between shepherds and these were in those times very likely to believe in nymphs, just as likely as CSL was to put such in the fictional setting of Narnia. So, a Pagan who wanted to become Christian obviously had to renounce all sacrifices to Olympian gods as well as believing in them - but was he required in the days of Saints Paul and Barnabas (who had no more inclination to be taken for Mercurius and Jupiter than I to be taken for King of the Jews!) to disbelieve nymphs of trees? I highly doubt it.

If Sarfati feels it MUST be a personification, he might be using some other info than the Holy Scriptures, and I would like to know what it is.

III - back to issue 1
As already explained, a personification can be antibiblical if misleading. And "Biblical personifications" may be very much something else, i e descriptions of real persons. I have no problem to take "trees clapping hands" as at least their guardian spirits - usually good angels rather than demons to judge from the context here - actually doing some Ent-like or Huorn-like hand clapping. While we are not watching. So if Scripture is not in the habit of metaphorical personifications, it may be even less Scriptural if the metaphoric nature of one is forgotten half of the time so one expects from a personification what can only be expected from persons.

But there is another turn on the question whether Natural Selection is anti-Biblical. Does it occurr?

Natural selection of who or what specimen shall survive long enough to have offspring, of whose offspring or the offspring of what specimen shall diffuse most or least, as explained means selection depending neither totally on chance or in any greater way on personal conscious choice.

In other words, natural selection means God is not personally making choices about the matter. Is that Biblical?

Psalm 103 includes the verse 5 which is Geostatic. If Earth is a disc, it will neither sink closer to Hell nor rise further up to Heaven. Nor even move sidewards. If Earth is a globe - as we know by other means that it is, but not directly and obviously from the Bible - it neither rotates around its axis nor, even less, is removed from its place to get around an orbit. That is at least a pretty obvious reading of that verse.

But this is not all the Psalm contains. It also includes "oculi omnium in te spectant Domine, et tu das illis escam eorum in tempore opportuno." Oh, sorry, that was Psalm 144! Now Psalm 103 contains a parallel:

Omnia a te expectant ut des illis escam in tempore. Dante te illis, colligent; aperiente te manum tuam, omnia implebuntur bonitate.

Everything expects from chance to be fed so as not to starve? No. Everything expects from their natural abilities to starve if weak or to eat if strong? No. Everything expects it from God! And if some creature starves to death?

Nonne duo passeres asse veneunt? et unus ex illis non cadet super terram sine Patre vestro.

Saint Matthew, chapter 10.

Are not two sparrows sold for a shilling? Not even one of the falls on the ground without your Father. Oh ... so what Evolutionists and CMI (unanimously according to Jonathan Sarfati) attribute to "natural selection", our Lord attributes to - God.

God does the culling. God knows whatever genetic faults there are in a population, of beasts or of men, and God also knows which of them He intends to let through and which if them He intends to cull.

In that sense, yes, Natural Selection is deeply antibiblical.

It presupposes the genetic material is full of brave new possibilties (evolutionist version) or of disastrous faults (CMI version) either the one needing culling away or the other needing to be exalted by culling away of the rest. Either version supposes that life of a species depends on disaster on part of its members. Now, after the fall, life of wolves or lions may indeed depend on disaster for rabbits or deer, such as being caught and eaten, or life of rabbits and deer depend on (relative) disaster for wolves or lions such as going hungry. But the idea of Natural Selection means that life of each population also depends on death of some of its members. Not just from time to time, not just by the oldest dying away to give place to the youngest (most of the time), but also regularly through choices being operated by culling of some individuals. Now, God certainly does know as an occasional fact that some individuals have genetic traits likelier to survive in some environments and God sometimes in such cases choses to take care of the population by culling away those with traits less likely to survive.

But it is neither good theology nor even good operational zoology to suppose this is almost always the case.

A lion catching or not catching a deer and a deer escaping or not escaping a lion is of course a survival occasion of that individual. And of course there is a sense in which a genetically slower individual, if there be such one, will be less likely to catch or to escape. But this is very far from being the reason why a lions catches or why a deer escapes in all cases. It can be a matter of the other of them being slow. And even that need not be hereditary, it can be due to its shape of the day. The slow individual which looses such a spurt (as deer eaten or as lion going hungry) may simply have just eaten and be full (in which case the lion would normally not be hunting, unless catching up on family obligations, but it can easily be the case for the deer), may have stumbled, may even have stumbled because its very quickness did not allow it to pay attention, may have had an accident relevant for the leg, and so on.

It is very nonsensical to presume this "lottery" is always or regularly - except on very long run - favouring the best and disfavouring the worst genes. And it is not needed to presume genes are often in a survival relevant inequality. Obviously downright genetic diseases are. Among men, this is less likely to stop procreation - except when men get Darwin conscious and eugenicist. Even among wild animals, God could make an exception to the usual rule of disregard and dying out of "unfit", and among domesticated animals it is even current. Some cat races and dog races could not survive in the wild - unless God provided.

So, in that sense, Natural Selection is anti-Biblical. It disregards the Divine Providence and overdoes the Pagan feeling that "heredity is destiny" - a feeling I am more certain that Pagans had to renounce, as they also had to renounce consulting Sibyls, when getting ready for Baptism.

Hans Georg Lundahl
UL of Nanterre
Saint Sosthenes of Corinth
whom Saint Paul mentions
28-XI-2014

Sources of citations: