Affichage des articles dont le libellé est john woodmorappe. Afficher tous les articles
Affichage des articles dont le libellé est john woodmorappe. Afficher tous les articles

lundi 20 octobre 2025

Portrait of Robert Broom, Not That Ugly, Compare the Palaeontological Designation


Here, John Woodmorappe mentions Robert Broom.

Entertaining storytelling about the presumed evolution of mammals
by John Woodmorappe | This article is from
Journal of Creation 38(2):37–40, August 2024
https://creation.com/review-the-rise-and-reign-of-the-mammals-brusatte


A review of: The Rise and Reign of the Mammals: A new history from the shadow of the dinosaurs to us by Steve Brusatte, Mariner Press, New York, 2022


Turns out, in my attempts to salvage the content of the site Palaeocritti, before it went down, I came across his name, both as discoverer, and as namegiver without personal involvement:

Palaeocritti Blog: Broomicephalus laticeps
https://palaeocritti.blogspot.com/2013/11/broomicephalus-laticeps.html


By the way, my link to the original site which went down is now re-directing to Crit-Ti Palaeo which is defined as "Paleontology meeting" ...

Point is, Broomicephalus means Broom's head. I wondered "was Broom that ugly?"



https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Broomicephalus1DB.jpg

GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2


I then noted, no, "Broom's" is because Broom discovered it, and "head" is because he only found a ... skull.

But still, if you want to tell someone he's excruciatingly ugly, Broomicephalus or Biarmosuchian might be the word you are looking for. Not that you should, usually./HGL

jeudi 13 avril 2023

Will Natural Law Only Keep the Solar System in Place?


Newton and Laplace seem to have thought so.

For Laplace, we have the famous anecdote, Napoleon seemed to have gathered from Newton that when planetary orbits get out of hand (by natural processes, no doubt), God or angels shoved them back into the right place and speed for the solar system to go on.

Laplace, according to the anecdote, answered "I do not find this hypothesis necessary" ...

For Newton, we have some news (real or fake news) that he agreed with Laplace (whether the anecdote itself was real or fake news).

As a classic example of GOTG, unbelievers bring up Isaac Newton, who supposedly invoked the direct Hand of God, in ad hoc fashion, whenever he could not explain some aspect of planetary motion. Meyer actually re-examined Newton’s Principia and found this to be untrue. It turns out to be a rationalistic legend. Newton did invoke God in a providential sense, but never as a gap-filler. As Meyer explains:

“Third, though Newton affirmed these powers of God, he did not postulate occasional, special, or singular acts of God in place of a law-like description of planetary motion or to remedy irregularities in the laws of nature or to fix an unstable planetary system. Newton thought that God was responsible on an ongoing basis for the mathematical regularities evident in nature, not fixing irregularities or rectifying instabilities [emphasis in original]” (p. 429; see also p. 518).


CMI : The existence of specified information in the universe points to a creator God
Journal of Creation 36(1):26–29, April 2022
https://creation.com/review-return-of-the-god-hypothesis-meyer


(A review of: Return of the God Hypothesis: Three scientific discoveries that reveal the mind behind the universe by Stephen C. Meyer, Harper One, New York, 2021, reviewed by John Woodmorappe)

Let's see his background ...

In 1981, Meyer graduated from Whitworth College before being employed at Atlantic Richfield Company (ARCO) in Dallas from November 1981 to December 1985.[6] Meyer then took up a scholarship from the Rotary Club of Dallas to study at Cambridge University, where he earned a Master of Philosophy and Doctor of Philosophy in history and the philosophy of science in 1991.[7] His dissertation was entitled "Of Clues and Causes: A Methodological Interpretation of Origin-of-Life Research".[8]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_C._Meyer

And the reviewer's ...

John decided to major in both geology and biology because of the pivotal role of these two disciplines in the study of origins. He ended up with a BA in Biology, a BA in Geology, and an MA in Geology. Woodmorappe is constantly learning new things on his own, and conducting scientific research. He now has numerous publications, including the following three books:


https://creation.com/john-woodmorappe

Oops ... neither of them is an astronomer ...

What exactly is the kind of instability Newton is at least purported to have said needed occasional direct action from God? The kind of instability that Napoleon is at least purported to have understood Newton as considering?

After a video from NASA, with water droplets dancing around electrically charged knitting needles ...

[ISS] Don Petit, Science Off The Sphere - Water Droplets Orbiting Charged Knitting Needle
Space Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyRv8bNDvq4


I concluded that even the "two body problem" (Earth and Moon excluding consideration of the Sun, Earth-Moon - as one body - and Sun excluding consideration of other planets) would involve an instability, which would make the Heliocentric Newtonian system unstable in much less than 4.5 billion years. I came up with an expression of it here, before a debate with "Darael" made me reconsider using this argument, in the comments under it:

New blog on the kid : Newtonianly speaking, Can Earth Still Orbit Sun After 4.5 Billion Years?
http://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2017/01/newtonianly-speaking-can-earth-still.html


After this debate, I cling to two remnants of it, as disproving Heliocentrism in the long run:

  • what about the many-body problem?
  • it's not just earth that loses atmosphere, but the Sun loses mass as well.


These points, as I recall, and for the second, as I saw when checking, Darael chose not to argue about. In other words, I could still have a point.

What Newton possibly would have been thinking of is the many-body problem.

The orbital mechanics of a two-body problem are at least slightly affected by the presence of even a third clearly distinct body (Earth, Moon and Sun are not a three-body problem, since Earth and Moon function as one body in relation to the Sun - but Earth, Jupiter, Sun, that's a three-body problem).

When Earth supposedly orbits the Sun, Earth is obviously affected by the gravitation from the Sun. And the Sun, very much less, by the gravitation from Earth. But the orbit of Earth on a given side of the Sun (for instance the Virgo side back in early March) is also affected by whether Jupiter is at the moment:

  • on the same side of the Sun as Earth, outside Earth, obviously, like Jupiter in Virgo while Sun is in Pisces
  • on the other side of the Sun than Earth, like Jupiter and Sun both in Pisces
  • at an angle from the line Earth to Sun, like Sun in Pisces and Jupiter neither Pisces nor Virgo.


Neither Newton nor Laplace had computers. It seems some Chinese researchers did a computer modelling testing the many-body programme. Their verdict was, it could be stable or instable, depending on initial conditions.

But it is arguable, the astronomers not knowing all the factors, that the Chinese researchers couldn't put all the factors into the computer programme.

If by any chance the Heliocentric system, functioning Newtonianly, on Newtonian principles, is after all stable, that would make the Solar System a great illustration of the watchmaker analogy, by Paley. After seeing Testify (Erik Manning's youtube), I'd consider Paley is better off in Gospel apologetics. However, St. Thomas made another analogy than the watchmaker about God. It's like God was both the perfect Fender and the perfect Tommaso Zillio, if we take electric guitars as the instrument. Or God was both the perfect harpmaker and the perfect harpist. The latter - i e God's continuous acts of for instance turning the Universe (below Empyrean Heaven) around Earth - is what St. Thomas based his arguments for God on.

With the watchmaker analogy, one asks, perhaps - "has the watchmaker died or lost interest?" - which is Deism.
With the instrument builder and instrumentalist analogy, it is obvious God is in charge. Which He is according to Christianity.

One should not be bashful when someone speaks of "God of the Gaps fallacy" - in Aristotle, there is no such thing, and in later logic, also not, it was only added as a propaganda stunt by Evolutionists - Nietzsche and a Scottish Free Church Minister, Henry Drummond. Both were heavily biassed against Classic Theism. However, while Heliocentrism of Newtonian mechanism might be possible with Classic Theism, not just as possible for God, but rather therefore also a possible interpretation of what we have, with Classic Theism, there is no necessity for Heliocentrism of Newtonian mechanism, which is not the preferrable thing in epistemology.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
Easter Week Thursday
13.IV.2023

vendredi 4 février 2022

Woodmorappe Exaggerates the Extent


Catholic Church for over a Century? Really? See here:

As is the case with many Protestant Churches, the Catholic Church has been attempting, for over a century, to bend Scripture in various creative ways to make it fit evolution. It has never worked. Late is the hour. With the widespread apostasy from the churches, it is high time that the Church return to an unequivocal and literal acceptance of the Book of Genesis, and teach this without apology


How the Catholic Church sold out to evolution
A review of Creation, Evolution, and Catholicism: a discussion for those who believe (Thomas L. McFadden)
Book Review by John Woodmorappe in Creation 343
https://dl0.creation.com/articles/p137/c13759/j34-3_27-30.pdf


Even though the Church hesitantly accepted evolution by the turn of the 20th century,


But she didn't ... one was in 1900 allowed to believe grasses all descend from one type of grass - in other words, baraminology. One was not bothered, but also not directly encouraged to believe in non-human evolution in Chesterton's time, beyond baraminology.

The first open discussion of Adam having non-human ancestry came in 1941 ... the decade that a certain report (not CIADE, recently, but another one, 2019 or early 2020, or spoken of back then in context of the Barbarin process) had the first testimonies of priests committing sexual abuses from. And the conclusion was not "you can believe that" but "if so, those would have been physical progenitors, but not real parents" (Adam being the first real human being). In other words, the beginning of this non-rejection or not-quite-rejection was basically accusing God of being a child abuser as to Adam when a child.

Even in Humani generis 1950, there was no "you can believe this" for Adam getting his biology from non-human progenitors, only "this can be discussed" - however, it was reported as giving an actual permission. But that's 72, not over 100 years ago.

What you definitely could believe 100 years ago in the West World among Catholics was Old Age. Up to 1920 the options considered as orthodox were :

  • Biblical chronology holds from Genesis 1:1
  • Biblical chronology holds from Genesis 1:3 as per Gap Theory
  • Biblical chronology probably holds from creation of Adam, but the creation days before that (including day 6) were longer periods, Day-Age Theory.


In 1920 someone saw that the last publication he knew of having defended any were from the 1890's and he concluded they were out of fashion. He was a Jesuit from Catholic Institute of Paris, his name was Émile Mancenot and he invented the Framework Theory while admitting none before him had accepted it, in Catholic circles .... but even he did not suggest evolution between different kinds, especially from any ape to any mankind. However, at the same time Teilhard de Chardin wrote men had evolved - like modern man from Homo erectus. Also a Jesuit ... as time went by, he was going to sing the praise of a God guiding Evolution.

But Teilhard de Chardin was very far from representative of Catholics back then. And very far from the Church as such promoting him, he was pushed back - he got a ban on writing (and obeyed it) and someone got him off a heresy process by suggesting he was mentally ill - something carrying less consequences back then, unless you were hospitalised, and the liberties of a Jesuit are anyway not quite the same as for a layman. In 1947 the Archdiocese of Paris wrote to Rome, the Papal Biblical Commission gave an answer that was interpreted in a very liberal sense, and Humani generis was partly a pushback against that, and Pius XII claimed the answer of the commission had been misrepresented.

38. Just as in the biological and anthropological sciences, so also in the historical sciences there are those who boldly transgress the limits and safeguards established by the Church. In a particular way must be deplored a certain too free interpretation of the historical books of the Old Testament. Those who favor this system, in order to defend their cause, wrongly refer to the Letter which was sent not long ago to the Archbishop of Paris by the Pontifical Commission on Biblical Studies.[13] This letter, in fact, clearly points out that the first eleven chapters of Genesis, although properly speaking not conforming to the historical method used by the best Greek and Latin writers or by competent authors of our time, do nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense, which however must be further studied and determined by exegetes; the same chapters, (the Letter points out), in simple and metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little cultured, both state the principal truths which are fundamental for our salvation, and also give a popular description of the origin of the human race and the chosen people. If, however, the ancient sacred writers have taken anything from popular narrations (and this may be conceded), it must never be forgotten that they did so with the help of divine inspiration, through which they were rendered immune from any error in selecting and evaluating those documents.


Too many concessions there already, a confusion of the metaphorical with the simple ... and I'll return to the horror of paragraph 36 ... but the historicity of Genesis 1 to 11 is in broad principle upheld. About as much as for instance Hugh Ross would do, not the least like Robertson or Spong. And note, even 36 says that opponents of evolution should be allowed in the debate.

This means, even 72 years ago, the Catholic Church as such on a world wide level had not "accepted evolution" as the claim went. Compare this with Lyell who in the 1830's was part of Broad Church Anglicanism - and already then impugning the historicity of Moses. As CMI has documented.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Paris
St. Andrew Corsini
4.II.2022

Sancti Andreae Corsini, ex Ordine Carmelitarum, Episcopi Faesulani et Confessoris, cujus dies natalis agitur octavo Idus Januarii.

vendredi 5 décembre 2014

Emil Silvestru on Radioactive Decay Rates

If natural nuclear fission reactors existed deep inside the earth, in the core or/and in the mantle, there is no particular reason why they could not have a pulsating character, periodic or random. It is conceivable that during pulses, massive neutrino fluxes were produced which could have then affected radioactive decay rates of all radioisotopes on the planet.


This is from one of four articles on radioactive decay rate variations I was reading with great interest on CMI.

I will first list them:



What exactly was I saying about atomic warfare in the Nodian pre-Flood society, a few months or perhaps even a year ago? I was saying for instance such bombs may have accelerated decay rates very substantially for pre-Flood radioactive samples.

Whence my interest in Mahabharata poem as having possibly sth to do with warfare when Kali Yuga is supposed to have begun, i e 155 years before the Flood (if we date it by Roman Martyrology).

In other words, Hindoo Mahabharata freaks if succeeding in proving atom bombs existed and were used thousands of years ago, would be doing Young Earth Creationism a big favour. Perhaps not a necessary one, but still a big one.

For the reason stated by Emil Silvestru in the quote above.

Of course, there is this other take on very old ages by very long half lives - that they have not been tested as to the Geiger measurer ticking rate per se and calculated half life from there but rather calibrated half lives from old samples. I am not speaking as an expert here, but I am noting that something like that was done when a mummy supposed to have been historically dated was used to calibrate C14. As already noted on the three parts of the fifth part of a series that also includes messages here:



Take it as a suggestion. I have found consistent or near such mutism towards non-specialists among specialists of today, when adressing the essays to them and challenging for refutations if they have such. So I cannot claim to know for a fact exactly how it is claculated, but these are my musings on the matter.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre UL
St Sabbas, Abbot
5-XII-2014

vendredi 28 mars 2014

Two Points on Asher’s Book – and a Third One

1) Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Does Steven Dutch Know History?, 2) Creation vs. Evolution : Two Points on Asher’s Book – and a Third One

The first point is from CMI’s review of the book Evolution and Belief. I am even repeating an argument from John Woodmorappe, only adding myself that Dawkins has actually given an observation supporting it. The other one is from reading the excerpts on Cambridge University Press site. Or two actually.

Several recent studies show that enamel-encoding genes in toothed animals exist as pseudogenes in toothless mammals. Asher blows the trumpet of evolutionistic triumphalism, and then pontificates that God would not make it that way (pp. 137–138). Apart from its theological presumption, Asher makes some other tacit assumptions. He supposes that, since they cannot encode for enamelin, the pseudogenes are therefore useless. Actually, there is evidence, from a more recent work,11 that at least one of the parent genes, MMP20, has multiple functions, and therefore possibly its pseudogene ortholog has at least one. If so, this ‘absolves’ God of creating non-functioning genes.

Second, the enamelin gene is just as incapable of producing enamelin if partly omitted during Creation as it is incapable of producing enamelin if omitted entirely during Creation.

Asher presumes that a de novo design is always the most intelligent solution. It may actually make more sense to create, for a toothless mammal, the same genome as for a toothed one, except for built-in intentionally inactivated enamelin genes, than to design quite different genomes for toothless and toothed mammals.


Woodmorappe gives even more details, I will leave the reader to his review:

CMI : A theistic paleontologist with dubious theology and little-better science
A review of Evolution and Belief: Confessions of a Religious Paleontologist by Robert J. Asher
Cambridge University Press, New York, 2012
by John Woodmorappe
http://creation.com/review-evolution-and-belief


However, as I promised, I will give you a Dawkinsian support for this:

Creation vs. Evolution : On Reading The Greatest Show by Dawkins - Parts of it! : Not blueprint but recipe.
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.fr/2012/10/on-reading-greatest-show-by-dawkins.html#nbbr


Quoting myself from my summaries of the chapters I had read (since I do not have Dawkins' book at hand):

Saying as Dawkins does that our genes do not give a blueprint but a recipe for our bodies, one that is followed step by step during pregnancy, does not dispense of a wisdom ordering the process.


Here my point is not about the wisdom, but about the fact it is a recipe rather than a blueprint. Since Dawkins knows this, he would not have written that in the book if he hadn’t, I suppose he is able to refute for himself the argument from pseudogenes.

Now, to the distinction that Asher makes:
Cambridge University Press
978-0-521-19383-2 - Evolution and Belief: Confessions of a Religious Paleontologist
Robert J. Asher
Excerpt
http://assets.cambridge.org/97805211/93832/excerpt/9780521193832_excerpt.pdf


Please note that this process explains how biological change occurs. It does so in the same way that you might explain how a steam engine works, or the process by which its action is caused: water heated to 100 °C boils into steam, which rises and powers the rotation of a turbine, which then generates electricity at the local power plant, and spins the wheels of your nineteenth-century train, Mississippi riverboat, etc. As an analogy this is a bit dated, but the point should be clear: both explanations are about natural processes responsible for something we observe. It is equally valid to note that Thomas Savery designed the first steam engine, or that James Watt (among others) later improved it. However, the latter is an explanation of a different sort: it is one of agency, not cause. Riverboat passengers at some point may have expressed great admiration for Savery and Watt, the “creators” of their momentum. How does the engine work? Savery did it, helped by Watt. Such an interpretation is true in the sense that Savery and Watt deserve credit as the agency behind the steam engine. However, it says nothing about how the steam engine actually works. There is a materialist, or naturalistic, cause behind the function of their steam-propelled craft which is not changed by recognizing the agency of Savery and Watt in the development of its engine. This kind of natural causation is what I meant earlier when I referred to the “materialist orientation” of science.


Indeed, Asher has a kind of religion. One in which God is to the actual working of the Universe as Watt is to the actual working of a steam engine. I am not sure of his confession, Catholic or Protestant, but I am sure he is not a Catholic and would not be recognised as such by St Pius X or by St Thomas Aquinas. If he is nominally Catholic, he is so on the same heterodox terms as Miller. He may not have another Confession – at least this is true of Miller – than Roman Catholicism available, but that is only like for a certain time Martin Luther had for a certain time no other Confession than Roman Catholicism available.

What St Thomas Aquinas means by First Cause is NOT a parallel to Watt or Savery. What St Thomas Aquinas means by First Mover is ultimately to the steam precisely as the steam is to the navigation of the steamboat or as heat is to making water steam. That is something for which Asher no longer uses the word Cause or Mover, but the Neologism Agency.

St Thomas does not mean that God is inventor of a Universe working without him, as if secondary causes were secondary only insofar as once set moving by their inventor, but some of them actually primary in the analysis of each moment. He does not compare God’s making the Universe to an Architect making a House. He compares the work of the Six Days to the making of an instrument, and the work of Providence mainly after the Six Days to the same person playing on the instrument. The one he chooses is “harp” according to a very refined musical taste of those times. It is not quite the same thing as a bagpipe or an electrical guitar. But the point is, the Universe on this view is NOT made to be working on its own, it is meant to work as a tool for its Creator who also remains its Master. And to Universe as instrument being played God is not just Maker, but also actual Agency. That is the whole point of Theology between Trads and Evolution compromisers.

Actually Woodmorappe misses an occasion for a fine shade in another part of his review:

The fact that God operates providentially (operations science: Thomas Aquinas’ cited example of God providing heat through a fire) itself tells us nothing about how He had acted when He created the universe (origins science).


Now, it is not just that, but on Asher’s view, presumably, God provides us with fire when we need heat, through the fact of having created the parametres of natural laws such that fire would be at hand at certain times and not at other ones and perhaps (with very much determinism) intentionally made each item of a man finding a fireplace, dry firewood, sparks, to necessary results of conditions at Big Bang via necessities (including social ones) binding the acencies.

On St Thomas Aquinas’ view, God is not only at each point free to provide fire miraculously, but also every place there is fire results ultimately from a Divine Decision, including Decisions to respect Human ones, and a Divine Decision about that particular place, that particular time.

If Asher likes, God is “in the process”, as much as He is in Psalm 146. But He is not “in” the process so as to be subsumed by it or like the genius of Watt and Savery are in each steam engine. He is in the process as a free agency. Not as the only free agency, but as the highest and freest of them. Omnipotent does not mean everyone else is a puppet, but it means Creation cannot successfully rebel or stymie its Creator. It also means that even if others than God decide, God decides everything, including the fact of now or then giving the effective decision to this or the other created will.

Now, that is about the points most directly relevant for Creation vs Evolution. But Asher makes another one, and Woodmorappe is a bit unsuspecting when he brushes off points related to that one as “offensive” (and untrue) but ultimately irrelevant. Asher puts it in the first paragraph of the text, page 1:

A lot of disagreements between people are due to honest emphasis on mutually exclusive propositions, both of which have clear value. Examples include social responsibility versus personal liberty, or freedom of speech versus the protection of minorities. In other cases, one party to a debate is just plain wrong, misinformed, or invested in error for extraneous and/or personal reasons. This includes the “divine right of kings” and “separate but equal” racial segregation. Society makes its way along the centuries by recognizing, and dispensing with, the erroneous (e.g., divine right) while building up institutions that can justly scrutinize the real debates, hopefully reaching the right decision more often than not.


OK, “divine right of kings” is supposed to be erroneous. The “separate but equal” segregation between skin colours is erroneous. How does Asher know this? Because Society with a capital S along the centuries has recognised them as such. Because its Institutions (capital I, even if he did not do so himself) can be counted on as mostly reaching the right decision.

Asher is a deeply religious man, but he is not a Christian. He is off from adoring God, since God is not an Agency, neither in Creating the Universe any way He wanted to nor in making Providence as a free Agency. He is just a “cause” same way as Watt and Savery are “causes”. Not in a sense of the word that Aristotle and St Thomas Aquinas would have recognised, but in a way “a cause”. He is giving Divine Honour, not indeed to Kings, which are a personal Institution, but to a non-defined or ill-defined set of Collective Institutions, since working over the Centuries.

He belongs to the University of Cambridge. Over the last Century the University of Cambridge has settled, collectively speaking, for Evolution being true and Creation in Six Days 7200 years ago false. He hopes that mostly the Institutions cut off from their roots in Christian Orthodoxy will nevertheless mostly produce the right decisions. ERGO accepting Evolution is the most probably right decision. That is not science, that is treating Human Institutions as living Idols, much as Mahayana Buddhists deal with the living idol called Dalai Lama (always forgetting the name but not face of the present bearer of the title, but he is a living idol).

Woodmorappe is wrong when saying:

He repeats hoary antibiblical myths, such as the one about it teaching that stars hang from a solid firmament (p. 22). He derides certain Christian social teachings, and makes an implied equation of the Islamic terrorists of 911 with Christian fundamentalists (p. 130). Apart from being false and offensive, they are irrelevant to the theme of his work, and only detract from it.


They are NOT irrelevant to the theme of his work , they are the theme of his work and the defense of Evolution as well as its compatibility with “religion” are just glosses on this theme. Very elaborate glosses, but nevertheless glosses. The ultimate reason of Asher is not “God is working within His Creation, not outside it” but “people who believe God is working as a Free Agency with His Creation are a menace to society, and Institutions that have decided that the Agencies usually at work in the Universe are not God are the hope for a better society in the future.”

I hope I have more tranquil reasons, but in a similar vein to that one, mine is that Institutions denying the God of the Bible have a very terrible track record, and are still engaged in doing great harm. And I put more things in that category than perhaps Asher would expect from Woodmorappe.

I also note that if enforced equal but distinct segregation is a mistake, so is affirmative action. And I have less faith in the Divine Right of Parliaments than in that of Kings. But is Asher even free enough to debate that? Or have his living Idols decided for him, as he up to now allowed them to?

Hans-Georg Lundahl
From Nanterre University Library*
Sts Priscus, Malchus and Alexander
Martyrs in Palestine under Valerian
28-III-2014

Indeed, the Emperor Cult also was an idolisation of living idols, who were also counted on as usually reaching the right decision. Well, from Nero or even Tiberius to Constantine there were quite a few years, 280 in fact, during which on one precise point, they consistently reached the wrong one. Valerian being no exception.

* Was added in Georges Pompidou library after I took the train ... (without paying).

samedi 15 février 2014

CMI on Allegorical Method - Answered

1) Creation vs. Evolution : If some pseudo-orthodox thinks Patristic and Literal interpretation of Genesis are incompatible ..., 2) CMI on Allegorical Method - Answered, 3) Literal Sense vs Literalistic Approach, Allegoric Sense vs Figurative Approach, 4) Great Bishop of Geneva! : Congratulating Lita Cosner on agreeing basically with StThomas Aquinas, 5) Mark Shea's Understanding of Scripture, 6) HGL's F.B. writings : Neither Sungenis nor Palm is totally right on Psalm 18 (Sungenis is less off)

As one on CMI stated correctly on the case of St Augustine and his take on six days, he believed in the allegorical method and this is not a denial of the historicity of the Old Testament texts*, since - here I add to their take - unlike an allegory by a human author who adapts his fictional story to what he is trying to expose (Fred Clark made on about a man claiming "Gospel of St Matthew denies there is an Ohio"), God can adapt real events to be prophecies about what He wants to reveal further on.

They seem critical of the allegorical method as if it meant "wanting to extract further information beyond the history", when in fact it is rather a checking of matches. Like the one Our Lord made between Hades and the whale of the grave and the whale or Jonah and Himself.

Now, it is basics that Adam allegorises Christ (it is also Biblical, he is called "the last Adam"), and Eve variously the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Church. I just found another matching item. It is of course well known that as Adam slept and God created Eve of a wound (temporary) in his side, so also Christ slept on the Cross and God created the Church out of His opened side, denoting by the water and blood the principal two of the Seven Sacraments that constitute the Church.

However, Adam named the animals before he slept. One Hovind video, Kent is making a little charade on this as if it had said directly that God let him choose his bride (it can be an indication thereof that it says he found no suitable help). "The hamster - too small, the giraffe - too big ..." and the list went on in Eden if Kent Hovind got this right (and we know that a list with probably Hebrew words for hamster and for giraffe was pronounced on Day Six - that is on the First Friday which corresponds to Good Friday). But did Christ in any sense name the animals on Good Friday?

Well, he implied Judaism - the guys taunting him and being about to found the wrongful and apostate Jewish religion - was "the bulls of Bashan". At least they understood His hint, since they fell silent as soon as He cited the first words of the Psalm. It includes lines like taunters taunting King David in very similar words and also the line "the Bulls of Bashan surround me".

Would "bulls of Bashan" not apply better to Samaritan religion than to Jewish one? No. The Samaritan religion was referred to as "cows of Bashan" by Amos. Cows and bulls, whether from Bashan or elsewhere, are not same gender, though same kind.

So, yes, I retain confidence in the Allegoric Method. Use the traces already given in Tradition (or for some items even Holy Bible itself) and follow the clues, you will find more and more support. It is not like trying to see images in shadows cast by a fire, since the support you find can be communicated and judged by others. Others in the Church, alive or already in the Fatherland above ... and if noone else is there, you can also directly confide in God's judgement.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Bpi, Georges Pompidou
St Sigfrid of Wexio
St Onesimus
15-II-2014

PS, if someone does not enjoy the designation "bulls of Bashan" being applicable to himself and his family in the eyes of God, St Peter told how to no longer be such. Acts, chapter 2, verses 14 to 40. Fuller comment on same in Haydock.

* "Miller’s inconsistent thinking comes through in many other ways. Like a compromising evangelical, he misrepresents Augustine and Basil (p. 255), and states that the Days in Genesis were supposed to be understood as long periods of time. But Augustine thought that Creation was instantaneous, and so he erred in the diametrically opposite direction. He was a member of the Alexandrian school that fancifully allegorized almost all Scripture (which did not necessarily deny its historicity but tried to seek additional meanings), and was not a Hebrew scholar."

From: Mutilating Miller*
by John Woodmorappe and Jonathan Sarfati
A review of Finding Darwin’s God
by Kenneth R. Miller
Cliff Street Books, New York, 2000
http://creation.com/review-finding-darwins-god-by-kenneth-miller


As to not being a Hebrew scholar, if this were a handicap we would not be able to trust most Church Fathers - which on the contrary we do, whether they were or were not Hebrew scholars or whether we do not know if they were.

vendredi 17 janvier 2014

Glenn Morton caught abusing words other people were taught as very small children

Three Meanings of Chronological Labels

In detail:1) How do Fossils Superpose?, 2) Searching for the Cretaceous Fauna (with appendix on Karoo, Beaufort), 3) What I think I have refuted, 4) Glenn Morton caught abusing words other people were taught as very small children

In debate or otherwise on Assorted Retorts: 1) ... on How Fossils Matter , 2) ... on Steno and Lifespan and Fossil Finds, 3) Geological Column NOT Palaeontolical [Censored by CMI-Creation-Station? Or just by the Library I am in?], 4) Same Debate Uncensored, One Step Further, 5) Continuing debate with Howard F on Geology / Palaeontology, 6) Howard F tries twice again ...

He claims all of the Geological Column is found in North Dakota. Here is the article section:

Geocolumn in North Dakota
from article: The Geologic Column
and its Implications for the Flood
Copyright © 2001 by Glenn Morton
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/#column


I will quote usually first sentence of each paragraph. And I will break off in Jurassic Piper formation. I add numbers and I break off the quotes also by adding comments.

  • 1) The Cambrian of this region consists of the Deadwood Formation.

  • 2) Above this is a black shale. Shale, due to the very small particle size requires quiet, tranquil waters for deposition to take place. This is one of the unrecognized difficulties of flood geology. Every shale, which is approximately 46% of the geologic column, is by its existence, evidence for tranquil waters.

  • 3) Above this is the Ordovician Winnipeg formation. It consists of a basal sand whose lithology is very similar to that of the Deadwood scolithus sand, "suggesting that the Deadwood Sandstone may be a source for the Winnipeg Sandstone" (Bitney, 1983, p. 1330). This would mean that local erosion was the cause of the sand for the Winnipeg sand rather than a world wide catastrophe. The Winnipeg does not have scolithus burrows.

  • 4) Above this is the Icebox shale. Once again a shale requires still water for deposition.

  • 5) Above this lies 1300 feet of Ordovician limestone and dolomite. These are the Red River, Stony Mountain and Stonewall formations, collectively known as the Bighorn Dolomite.


WAIT - 1300 feet ... how did one get down to the layers "under" that?

  • 6) Above the Ordovician carbonates lies the Silurian Interlake formation.

  • 7) The lower Devonian is the Winnepegosis formation ...

  • 8) The next Devonian bed is the Prairie Evaporite. It consists of dolomite, salt, gypsum, anhydrite and potash.


O ... K ... it contains how many fossils again?

  • 9) The Devonian Dawson Bay formation is a carbonate which shows evidence of subaerial erosion

  • 10) Next up is the Duperow formation. It also shows signs of subaerial erosion, salt deposition in the pores, anhydrite deposition.

  • 11) Above this is the Birdbear formation ...

  • 12) Above this is the is the Threeforks shale.


WAIT - seven layers above the supposedly 1300 feet of Ordovician limestone and dolomite ... how did you get down to it and measure the 1300 feet?

  • 13) The overlying Bakken formation is an organic rich shale.

  • 14) The mississippian Madison group is probably my favorite deposit in the whole world.


Fossils: dead crinoids.

  • 15) Above the Madison is the Big Snowy group.


Fossils: algae

  • 16) Above this is the Minnelusa formation

  • 17) The Opeche shale is of Permian age and overlies the Minnelusa.

  • 18) Above this is the Minnekahta limestone which was deposited in hypersaline waters. Hypersaline waters were not likely to be the flood waters which would have been brackish at worst due to the large influx of rainwater.


Salt breaking through during flood from interior of the world right here?

  • 19) Next is the Triassic Spearfish formation.

  • 20) The Jurassic Piper formation comes next.
    • a) The lowest member is the Dunham salt
    • b) Highly oxidized red beds, (normally marine deposits are dark, continental,subaerial deposits are reddish) with gypsum,an evaporitic bed lies above the salt
    • c) A small limestone followed by more redbeds and gypsum finishes the Piper formation.


WAIT ... 15 layers above the 1300 feet of Orodovocian limestone and dolomite. I start getting really worried about how one got down to those layers.

Or rather, to skip the irony for a moment, I think it begins to become obvious that our author is not using words like "above" and "below" in their standard linguistic sense, but as some kind of Geological abstraction derived from this. All I am pointing out is that there is this difference. When a Geologist - maybe even Creationist such like Tas Walker or Woodmorappe (whom this is an answer to) uses the words "above" and "below" there is no need to assume the actual stones of one formation have been found generally above or below those of another formation supposed to be above or below it. Non-Geologists usually learnt to attach a meaning to them.

Since if Glenn Morton had never ever learned to attach the ordinary meanings to the words "above" and "below", I can only conclude that becoming a Geologists involves some kind of brainwashing into applying these categories where ordinarily speaking they are simply not there at all.

Under one of the numerous sections mentioned above, he mentioned the deposit was potash and salt and such ... and I asked how many fossils had been found there. My point is that though he may have some lithographic point in assigning the Prairie Evaporite, which consists of dolomite, salt, gypsum, anhydrite and potash to the Devonian, such a deposit is not at all likely to contain any Devonian fossils. And apart from algae, crinoids and trilobites, no fossils have been mentioned as far as I went. This poses the question what fossils there are after all in North Dakota. And though Glenn Morton is not answering it, he very definitely ought to take a look at what seems to me to be an answer:

North Dakota on Palaeocritti site:
http://www.palaeocritti.com/by-location/united-states/north-dakota


  • Slope Formation, North Dakota, Upper Paleocene (Tiffanian)
    • Simoedosaurus dakotensis (Choristodera Simoedosauridae)


  • Bullion Creek (=Tongue River) Formation, North Dakota, US, Late Paleocene
    • Champsosaurus gigas (Choristodera Champsosauridae)
    • Champsosaurus tenuis (Choristodera tenuis)


  • Sentinel Butte Formation, North Dakota, US, Late Paleocene
    • Champsosaurus gigas (Choristodera Champsosauridae)


So, we very definitely do not have all ten periods on top of each other and each of them represented by lots of fossils in place. The palaeocritti site does not mention trilobites, but these hardly detract from the general picture that N Dakota is poor in fossils easy to tie down to a period. And even poorer when it comes to different periods - excepting that Palaeocene is very different in the textbooks from when the trilobites are supposed to be from. Does that count as "out of place fossils" or are the "visible parts of" Slope Formation, Bullion Creek Formation and Sentinel Butte Formation too far off from the relevant "visible parts of" the formations with Crinoids or Algae? Of course, one might suppose the spearfish formation has its name from containing spearfish fossils, it does not say.

Glenn Morton is in fact also citing another line of anti-flood logic while going through the numerous "layers" supposedly found on top of each other in "North Dakota" ... how many square yards was that spot again on the surface? Oh, wait, it is thousands of square miles, it is not a spot! ... and this is saying about such and such a layer things I have already in part quoted:

This is one of the unrecognized difficulties of flood geology. Every shale, which is approximately 46% of the geologic column, is by its existence, evidence for tranquil waters.


Now, in that case, though I would not absolutely bet he is right on that point, he has not produced a square miles wide and fathoms thick shale in a lab, I presume, there might have been parts of the flood when waters were in fact more tranquil. He gets into quite a few of such details, and I generally tend to rely on Woodmorappe and Walker to answer such questions.

Meanwhile, I have reaffirmed my point about a Geological Column no-where existing. How successfully is for the normal reader to conclude.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
Bpi, Georges Pompidou
Ste Rosaline
17-I-2014

lundi 15 juillet 2013

Where do you find Dinosaurs over Trilobites?


Geology seriesFeedback to Tas Walker on Geological Columns
If Tas Walker is right, Pius XII was not wrong to canonise Steno!

Actually Steno was not canonised yet, only beatified, and by John Paul II, as stated in following:

Creationism and Catholicism go well together (second example)
Where do you find Dinosaurs over Trilobites?
Steno and "Vertical Barbecue" contra John Laurie


For example, the evolutionist asks us why a layer of rock containing trilobites is never found to contain dinosaurs, and why a layer with dinosaurs is always found above one with trilobites and never the reverse. Fossil succession can be viewed in terms of solitary fossils, commonly called index fossils. Otherwise, groups of fossils can be used. These are often called fossil assemblages or assemblage zones. The essence of fossil succession, however, remains the same whether individual fossils, of groups of them, are used.

...

For example, although trilobites and dinosaurs were contemporaries of each other, there is no basis for believing that trilobite-bearing and dinosaur-bearing rocks were necessarily deposited at the same time all over the world. During the Flood, trilobite-bearing beds at one point on earth were probably being deposited at the same time as dinosaur-bearing beds at another place on earth. Nor can it be said that, when dinosaur-bearing beds locally overlie trilobite-bearing beds, the former are significantly younger than the latter. This, of course, excepts the small amount of difference in time, within the Flood, that elapsed between the burial of the trilobites and the burial of the overlying dinosaurs.


From article by Woodmorappe:

The fossil record: becoming more random all the time/John Woodmorappe
http://aufiles.creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j14_1/j14_1_110-116.pdf


There is a place in Morocco where you find trilobites (and some will forge trilobites to sell to tourists). But there are no dinosaurs above them. There are places where you find dinosaurs, including in parts of Morocco, but I know none of these containing trilobites under them.

That is what I was writing to Tas Walker about, and he said he was patiently looking at local geological column after local geological column, like starting all over from zero.

Methodologically speaking, I think we can get as sure a conclusion even without that work. It suffices to look into the known find places of certain types of fossils or fossils from certain periods.

I know - after some wikisearch on Lagerstätten* - of no place on earth, possibly excepting Grand Canyon and one other, where you can find Dinosaurs on one level, Trilobites on a level below it and Sabre Toothed Tigers on a level above it.

I only know that places where you find Dinosaurs are considered to be younger in the fossile column than places where you find Trilobites and older than places where you find Sabre Toothed Tigers. At least as to the relevant level for the fossile diggers. They will consider the level below the Dinos they find there as contemporaneous to a Trilobite level somewhere else, even if they find no Trilobites there. They will consider a possibly missing level above it as contemporaneous to a Sabre Toothed Tiger level somewhere else, even if they find no Sabre Toothed Tigers in it, because the level is missing.

But I know of no place where this consideration of one fossile stratum of Dinos as younger than one fossile stratum of Trilos is actually demonstrated by finding one of them on top of the other. And if Trilos were buried in what was during or previous to the Flood sea, and if Dinos were buried in what was during or rather previous to the Flood land, this is what we expect from that scenario too.

Hans-Georg Lundahl
BU Nanterre, Paris X
St Vladimir of Kiev
and St James of Nisibis
Council Father of Nicea
July 15, YooL 2013

*Check this out yourself:

Wiki: Lagerstätte
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagerstätte


List of Fossile Sites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fossil_sites